First try for pike = Struggles!

[RH1]

So yesterday was my first attempt to catch a pike on a flyrod. The first river access i tried i ended up walking in on 2 different hunters that were in stands along the river. I kindly waved, apologized and backed out of there.
Next spot where a creek enters the river was a family set up with a oile of kids throwing rocks and having fun, again turned and left.
At this point ive only made about 2 dozen casts.last spot I hit has a ton of log jams and Eddie's which should be loaded. Man it's is so hard to cast a fly rod from a wooded rivers edge accurately to a log jam especially since this is the first time ive tried any fly rod over a 5wt with some little flies. Well about 45 minutes into this "cluster*****", we'll you know the rest of that saying! I hung a beautiful jointed Thrasher that Ladove tied for me in a tree top over 10 feet of water. By the time I slid on my *** down a half sunk tree I was able to cut the leader but I left that beautiful Thrasher hanging like a Christmas ornament!
This is definitely going to be a more difficult challenge than getting my first flyrod trout was!
Yesterday's casting struggles left me questioning a couple things, whether it is my ability or the setup?
My setup for pike is as follows.
9ft 8wt ST.Croix Avid
Lamson liquid reel spooled with scientific angler sonar titan 8wt full intermediate and 7ft pike leader and tippet. Casting seemed to be difficult to get out much past about 25 feet and with alot of effort. Did I set up wrong? Would you change anything or just keep at it?

Thanks for listening Friends,
Ron

 

[hooker-of-men]

My first instinct would be to shorten the leader, especially if what you're saying above means 7' leader + additional tippet. Take a foot or two off (into the 5'-6' range) and see if it makes a difference for you.

But yes, in general, that setup is going to feel a good deal different than a 5 wt and will take some getting used to. It also sounds like you're roll casting because of the wooded banks? That's plenty of work with a heavy intermediate line and a giant fly.

Do you have a wadeable lake nearby where you could get out away from the bank? That would help to play with the setup and get a feel for the bigger rod without worrying about decorating the trees.

 

[PennKev]

I can't imagine being serious about going after pike/muskie without a boat.

Probably not what you want to hear, but that's what comes to mind after reading your struggles.

 

[RH1]

My first instinct would be to shorten the leader, especially if what you're saying above means 7' leader + additional tippet. Take a foot or two off (into the 5'-6' range) and see if it makes a difference for you.

But yes, in general, that setup is going to feel a good deal different than a 5 wt and will take some getting used to. It also sounds like you're roll casting because of the wooded banks? That's plenty of work with a heavy intermediate line and a giant fly.

Do you have a wadeable lake nearby where you could get out away from the bank? That would help to play with the setup and get a feel for the bigger rod without worrying about decorating the trees.

Thanks.. my leader is 7ft total including the wire tippet.. should I shorten the entire total length to around 5ft?
Does it seem that my rod reel and line are good to go?

 

[RH1]

I can't imagine being serious about going after pike/muskie without a boat.

Probably not what you want to hear, but that's what comes to mind after reading your struggles.

I wish I had that option but our pike fishing is almost entirely in the rivers unless we head up to lake erie and fish the lagoons.

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear RH1,

You're not going to want to hear this but the SA Sonar Titan intermediate in WF8 is actually a full 10 weight line. Your St Croix Avid is a very nice rod but it's meant for true to line weight fly lines and isn't made to be over-lined 2 full sizes. The rod just doesn't have the arse to generate the line speed to pull that dog chain of a fly line out of the guides.

So many of the modern fly lines are built for today's ultra-fast rods, where a modern 8 weight rod is actually a 10 weight. Older rods fail when using the new lines unless in they are in the hands of an extremely skilled caster, and even then, it's a crap-shoot depending on the caster.

As you can see from the charts below that SA Titan is even closer to an 11 weight line than it is an 8 weight line. You'll need a new $ 1195.00 rod in an 8 weight to throw it.

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

These are the true AFTMA line specs

AFTM Table

Line weight	Grain window	Grams (30 ft)	Typical use
1 wt	54 – 66	3.5 – 4.3	Very small streams, tiny dry flies
2 wt	74 – 86	4.8 – 5.6	Small streams, spring creeks
3 wt	94 – 106	6.1 – 6.9	Small trout water, delicate presentation
4 wt	114 – 126	7.4 – 8.2	General trout, dry fly and nymph
5 wt	134 – 146	8.7 – 9.5	All-round freshwater trout
6 wt	152 – 168	9.8 – 10.9	Larger trout, small bass, stillwater
7 wt	177 – 195	11.5 – 12.6	Bass bugs, big trout, light steelhead
8 wt	202 – 218	13.1 – 14.1	Bonefish, steelhead, largemouth bass
9 wt	230 – 250	14.9 – 16.2	Saltwater flats, pike, big bass
10 wt	270 – 290	17.5 – 18.8	Stripers, snook, light offshore
11 wt	318 – 342	20.6 – 22.2	Tarpon, big saltwater species
12 wt	368 – 392	23.8 – 25.4	Heavy saltwater, large tarpon

These are the SA specs for a Titan line

Sink I/2/3	Sink I/3/5	Sink 3/5/7	LINE WEIGHT	HEAD LENGTH	TOTAL LENGTH	HEAD WEIGHT	GRAIN WEIGHT*
136044	103916	——-	WF-6-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	230gr / 14,9g	210gr / 13,6g
136051	103923	——-	WF-7-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	265gr / 17,7g	240gr / 15,6g
136068	103930	126298	WF-8-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	310gr / 20,1g	280gr / 18,2g
136075	103947	126304	WF-9-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	365gr / 23,6g	330gr / 21,4g
136082	103954	126311	WF-10-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	420gr / 27,2g	380gr / 24,6g
——-	——-	126328	WF-11-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	500gr / 32,4g	450gr / 29,2g
——-	——-	126144	WF-12-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	550gr / 35,6g	500gr / 32,4g

 

[RH1]

Dear RH1,

You're not going to want to hear this but the SA Sonar Titan intermediate in WF8 is actually a full 10 weight line. Your St Croix Avid is a very nice rod but it's meant for true to line weight fly lines and isn't made to be over-lined 2 full sizes. The rod just doesn't have the arse to generate the line speed to pull that dog chain of a fly line out of the guides.

So many of the modern fly lines are built for today's ultra-fast rods, where a modern 8 weight rod is actually a 10 weight. Older rods fail when using the new lines unless in they are in the hands of an extremely skilled caster, and even then, it's a crap-shoot depending on the caster.

As you can see from the charts below that SA Titan is even closer to an 11 weight line than it is an 8 weight line. You'll need a new $ 1195.00 rod in an 8 weight to throw it.

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

These are the true AFTMA line specs

AFTM Table

[td]
AFTM number

[/td][td]
In grains (range)

[/td][td]
In grams

[/td][td]
In ounces

[/td]
[td]
3

[/td][td]
100 +/- 6

[/td][td]
6.48

[/td][td]
0.228

[/td]
[td]
4

[/td][td]
120 +/- 6

[/td][td]
7.78

[/td][td]
0.274

[/td]
[td]
5

[/td][td]
140 +/- 6

[/td][td]
9.07

[/td][td]
0.32

[/td]
[td]
6

[/td][td]
160 +/- 8

[/td][td]
10.42

[/td][td]
0.366

[/td]
[td]
7

[/td][td]
185 +/- 8

[/td][td]
11.99

[/td][td]
0.422

[/td]
[td]
8

[/td][td]
210 +/- 8

[/td][td]
13.61

[/td][td]
0.48

[/td]
[td]
9

[/td][td]
240 +/- 10

[/td][td]
15.55

[/td][td]
0.55

[/td]
[td]
10

[/td][td]
280 +/- 10

[/td][td]
18.14

[/td][td]
0.64

[/td]
[td]
11

[/td][td]
330 +/- 12

[/td][td]
21.38

[/td][td]
0.75

[/td]
[td]
12

[/td][td]
380 +/- 12

[/td][td]
24.62

[/td][td]
0.86

[/td]​

These are the SA specs for a Titan line

Sink I/2/3	Sink I/3/5	Sink 3/5/7	LINE WEIGHT	HEAD LENGTH	TOTAL LENGTH	HEAD WEIGHT	GRAIN WEIGHT*
136044	103916	——-	WF-6-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	230gr / 14,9g	210gr / 13,6g
136051	103923	——-	WF-7-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	265gr / 17,7g	240gr / 15,6g
136068	103930	126298	WF-8-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	310gr / 20,1g	280gr / 18,2g
136075	103947	126304	WF-9-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	365gr / 23,6g	330gr / 21,4g
136082	103954	126311	WF-10-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	420gr / 27,2g	380gr / 24,6g
——-	——-	126328	WF-11-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	500gr / 32,4g	450gr / 29,2g
——-	——-	126144	WF-12-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	550gr / 35,6g	500gr / 32,4g

So my rod isn't built for casting this line?
I do have a couple spools of sonar titan in 7wt, I wonder if I should give them a try before I buy a $1200 rod! Do you have a line that you would recommend for my setup?

 

[hooker-of-men]

Thanks.. my leader is 7ft total including the wire tippet.. should I shorten the entire total length to around 5ft?
Does it seem that my rod reel and line are good to go?

If it's a fancy $20 prefab pike leader, don't go cutting it up on my sight unseen advice, especially given Tim's comment!

If you've got a bunch of line laying around, you might try a couple feet of 35 lb to a couple feet of 20 to the wire.

 

[RH1]

If it's a fancy $20 prefab pike leader, don't go cutting it up on my sight unseen advice, especially given Tim's comment!

If you've got a bunch of line laying around, you might try a couple feet of 35 lb to a couple feet of 20 to the wire.

It is not.. actually it's probably a 20yr old pike leader from a pile of my dad's old equipment
I have the wire and mono to make leaders so goimg to mess around with leader lengths

 

[TimMurphy]

So my rod isn't built for casting this line?
I do have a couple spools of sonar titan in 7wt, I wonder if I should give them a try before I buy a $1200 rod! Do you have a line that you would recommend for my setup?

Dear RH1,

By all means try your 7-weight line on your Avid. I may be much easier to cast. As an example, I bought the Sonar Titan in a 7 weight to try on a true 7 weight rod that I own. After 20 minutes I wanted to snap the rod on the gunnel of the boat and throw it in the river. After I got home, I read and compared the specs and knew it wasn't really the rod's fault and it was barely even my fault. The line is simply far too heavy for many rods to cast due to it being grossly overweight.

I bought a 7-weight SA Titan slow sinking intermediate tip line and it works light years better.

As far as leaders go, you do not need any more than 4 feet of mono and a bite tippet. My brother fished for pike in the Yukon territory this Summer and it was all sight fishing and casting to visible fish. Their guide cut every leader down to 3 feet and added bite tippet. They caught plenty of fish with that set up. Anything longer than 5 feet total is overkill for sinking flies and lines, they ain't leader shy.

And I was being a bit facetious about needing an $ 1195.00 rod. If you really do want to explore a new rod take a look at the Echo ION XL series rods, they are around $ 300.00 but often go on sale.

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

 

[RH1]

Dear RH1,

By all means try your 7-weight line on your Avid. I may be much easier to cast. As an example, I bought the Sonar Titan in a 7 weight to try on a true 7 weight rod that I own. After 20 minutes I wanted to snap the rod on the gunnel of the boat and throw it in the river. After I got home, I read and compared the specs and knew it wasn't really the rod's fault and it was barely even my fault. The line is simply far too heavy for many rods to cast due to it being grossly overweight.

I bought a 7-weight SA Titan slow sinking intermediate tip line and it works light years better.

As far as leaders go, you do not need any more than 4 feet of mono and a bite tippet. My brother fished for pike in the Yukon territory this Summer and it was all sight fishing and casting to visible fish. Their guide cut every leader down to 3 feet and added bite tippet. They caught plenty of fish with that set up. Anything longer than 5 feet total is overkill for sinking flies and lines, they ain't leader shy.

And I was being a bit facetious about needing an $ 1195.00 rod. If you really do want to explore a new rod take a look at the Echo ION XL series rods, they are around $ 300.00 but often go on sale.

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

Thanks for all of your help, I knew you were making light of rod prices.. my wife just shook her head when I told her I needed a $1200 rod to catch 30" pike, hahaha

 

[Solitariolupo]

Don’t know to much about your setup but seeing you’re new at this it’s not just an overhead cast and a roll cast does not flip those heavy flies like you want them. Unless your close. Can watch other cast in YouTube vids but in heavy woods even in open water. On your back cast you actually let the fly hit the water and use water weight to load then cast forward. So you can cast side to side doing this also.

What river did you fish.

 

[Solitariolupo]

My setup is a 10wt hook and hackle rod, Rio only 10ft is intermediate of line then changes over. I go to 50lb zebco mono line maybe 8ft to about a foot of fluorocarbon. For my Muskie setup maybe gives you an idea.
Also I do not boat fish.

 

[RH1]

Don’t know to much about your setup but seeing you’re new at this it’s not just an overhead cast and a roll cast does not flip those heavy flies like you want them. Unless your close. Can watch other cast in YouTube vids but in heavy woods even in open water. On your back cast you actually let the fly hit the water and use water weight to load then cast forward. So you can cast side to side doing this also.

What river did you fish.

Thanks for the tips.
I was fishing the tuscarawas river in Ohio

 

[RH1]

So i wanted to give an update..
I tried 2 different spools of line and the difference is outstanding. I have the 3 spool lamson liquid so I was fortunate when I bought the reel it was pre-spooled with SA Solar Titan 7wt line. Floating, sink6 and full sink.
I just changed the spools and tried the Floating and sink 6 in my little pond and they both casted great. I can feel the rod load now on the back cast with a heavy fly. I was able to throw my pike flies at 40 feet from the backyard to my small pond. I do think I need either an intermediate or a sink 3 for the river, opinions welcomed on that. Not real sure on those sink differences, im a rookie!
The full sink will be saved for lakes.
Im going to sell that SA solar titan full intermediate for a reduced price as it will just sit in storage here.

 

[TimMurphy]

So i wanted to give an update..
I tried 2 different spools of line and the difference is outstanding. I have the 3 spool lamson liquid so I was fortunate when I bought the reel it was pre-spooled with SA Solar Titan 7wt line. Floating, sink6 and full sink.
I just changed the spools and tried the Floating and sink 6 in my little pond and they both casted great. I can feel the rod load now on the back cast with a heavy fly. I was able to throw my pike flies at 40 feet from the backyard to my small pond. I do think I need either an intermediate or a sink 3 for the river, opinions welcomed on that. Not real sure on those sink differences, im a rookie!
The full sink will be saved for lakes.
Im going to sell that SA solar titan full intermediate for a reduced price as it will just sit in storage here.

Dear RH1,

That's awesome news that you don't need to spend a lot more money to get back out there! A slow sinking 30 ft intermediate tip SA Titan should fit the bill for you. Now that you know the lines your rod can handle just pay attention to the line weight and the specs for the head weight so that you don't buy another overly heavy intermediate line. The line I use on my 7 weight is a 1 1/2 to 3 inch per second intermediate tip. Sometimes you just need to cast and wait a few seconds for the fly to sink before beginning your retrieve. You'll get a feel for it as you do it more often.

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

 

[RH1]

Dear RH1,

That's awesome news that you don't need to spend a lot more money to get back out there! A slow sinking 30 ft intermediate tip SA Titan should fit the bill for you. Now that you know the lines your rod can handle just pay attention to the line weight and the specs for the head weight so that you don't buy another overly heavy intermediate line. The line I use on my 7 weight is a 1 1/2 to 3 inch per second intermediate tip. Sometimes you just need to cast and wait a few seconds for the fly to sink before beginning your retrieve. You'll get a feel for it as you do it more often.

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

Thank you sir.. the Slow sinking intermediate tip will sink slower than the 1-3 correct?

 

[TimMurphy]

The line I have is rated for 1 1/2 to 3 inches per second and it works well on the Susquehanna and Juniata Rivers for me.