First try for pike = Struggles!

[RH1]

So yesterday was my first attempt to catch a pike on a flyrod. The first river access i tried i ended up walking in on 2 different hunters that were in stands along the river. I kindly waved, apologized and backed out of there.
Next spot where a creek enters the river was a family set up with a oile of kids throwing rocks and having fun, again turned and left.
At this point ive only made about 2 dozen casts.last spot I hit has a ton of log jams and Eddie's which should be loaded. Man it's is so hard to cast a fly rod from a wooded rivers edge accurately to a log jam especially since this is the first time ive tried any fly rod over a 5wt with some little flies. Well about 45 minutes into this "cluster*****", we'll you know the rest of that saying! I hung a beautiful jointed Thrasher that Ladove tied for me in a tree top over 10 feet of water. By the time I slid on my *** down a half sunk tree I was able to cut the leader but I left that beautiful Thrasher hanging like a Christmas ornament!
This is definitely going to be a more difficult challenge than getting my first flyrod trout was!
Yesterday's casting struggles left me questioning a couple things, whether it is my ability or the setup?
My setup for pike is as follows.
9ft 8wt ST.Croix Avid
Lamson liquid reel spooled with scientific angler sonar titan 8wt full intermediate and 7ft pike leader and tippet. Casting seemed to be difficult to get out much past about 25 feet and with alot of effort. Did I set up wrong? Would you change anything or just keep at it?

Thanks for listening Friends,
Ron

 

[hooker-of-men]

My first instinct would be to shorten the leader, especially if what you're saying above means 7' leader + additional tippet. Take a foot or two off (into the 5'-6' range) and see if it makes a difference for you.

But yes, in general, that setup is going to feel a good deal different than a 5 wt and will take some getting used to. It also sounds like you're roll casting because of the wooded banks? That's plenty of work with a heavy intermediate line and a giant fly.

Do you have a wadeable lake nearby where you could get out away from the bank? That would help to play with the setup and get a feel for the bigger rod without worrying about decorating the trees.

 

[PennKev]

I can't imagine being serious about going after pike/muskie without a boat.

Probably not what you want to hear, but that's what comes to mind after reading your struggles.

 

[RH1]

My first instinct would be to shorten the leader, especially if what you're saying above means 7' leader + additional tippet. Take a foot or two off (into the 5'-6' range) and see if it makes a difference for you.

But yes, in general, that setup is going to feel a good deal different than a 5 wt and will take some getting used to. It also sounds like you're roll casting because of the wooded banks? That's plenty of work with a heavy intermediate line and a giant fly.

Do you have a wadeable lake nearby where you could get out away from the bank? That would help to play with the setup and get a feel for the bigger rod without worrying about decorating the trees.

Thanks.. my leader is 7ft total including the wire tippet.. should I shorten the entire total length to around 5ft?
Does it seem that my rod reel and line are good to go?

 

[RH1]

I can't imagine being serious about going after pike/muskie without a boat.

Probably not what you want to hear, but that's what comes to mind after reading your struggles.

I wish I had that option but our pike fishing is almost entirely in the rivers unless we head up to lake erie and fish the lagoons.

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear RH1,

You're not going to want to hear this but the SA Sonar Titan intermediate in WF8 is actually a full 10 weight line. Your St Croix Avid is a very nice rod but it's meant for true to line weight fly lines and isn't made to be over-lined 2 full sizes. The rod just doesn't have the arse to generate the line speed to pull that dog chain of a fly line out of the guides.

So many of the modern fly lines are built for today's ultra-fast rods, where a modern 8 weight rod is actually a 10 weight. Older rods fail when using the new lines unless in they are in the hands of an extremely skilled caster, and even then, it's a crap-shoot depending on the caster.

As you can see from the charts below that SA Titan is even closer to an 11 weight line than it is an 8 weight line. You'll need a new $ 1195.00 rod in an 8 weight to throw it.

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

These are the true AFTMA line specs

AFTM Table

Line weight	Grain window	Grams (30 ft)	Typical use
1 wt	54 – 66	3.5 – 4.3	Very small streams, tiny dry flies
2 wt	74 – 86	4.8 – 5.6	Small streams, spring creeks
3 wt	94 – 106	6.1 – 6.9	Small trout water, delicate presentation
4 wt	114 – 126	7.4 – 8.2	General trout, dry fly and nymph
5 wt	134 – 146	8.7 – 9.5	All-round freshwater trout
6 wt	152 – 168	9.8 – 10.9	Larger trout, small bass, stillwater
7 wt	177 – 195	11.5 – 12.6	Bass bugs, big trout, light steelhead
8 wt	202 – 218	13.1 – 14.1	Bonefish, steelhead, largemouth bass
9 wt	230 – 250	14.9 – 16.2	Saltwater flats, pike, big bass
10 wt	270 – 290	17.5 – 18.8	Stripers, snook, light offshore
11 wt	318 – 342	20.6 – 22.2	Tarpon, big saltwater species
12 wt	368 – 392	23.8 – 25.4	Heavy saltwater, large tarpon

These are the SA specs for a Titan line

Sink I/2/3	Sink I/3/5	Sink 3/5/7	LINE WEIGHT	HEAD LENGTH	TOTAL LENGTH	HEAD WEIGHT	GRAIN WEIGHT*
136044	103916	——-	WF-6-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	230gr / 14,9g	210gr / 13,6g
136051	103923	——-	WF-7-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	265gr / 17,7g	240gr / 15,6g
136068	103930	126298	WF-8-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	310gr / 20,1g	280gr / 18,2g
136075	103947	126304	WF-9-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	365gr / 23,6g	330gr / 21,4g
136082	103954	126311	WF-10-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	420gr / 27,2g	380gr / 24,6g
——-	——-	126328	WF-11-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	500gr / 32,4g	450gr / 29,2g
——-	——-	126144	WF-12-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	550gr / 35,6g	500gr / 32,4g

 

[RH1]

Dear RH1,

You're not going to want to hear this but the SA Sonar Titan intermediate in WF8 is actually a full 10 weight line. Your St Croix Avid is a very nice rod but it's meant for true to line weight fly lines and isn't made to be over-lined 2 full sizes. The rod just doesn't have the arse to generate the line speed to pull that dog chain of a fly line out of the guides.

So many of the modern fly lines are built for today's ultra-fast rods, where a modern 8 weight rod is actually a 10 weight. Older rods fail when using the new lines unless in they are in the hands of an extremely skilled caster, and even then, it's a crap-shoot depending on the caster.

As you can see from the charts below that SA Titan is even closer to an 11 weight line than it is an 8 weight line. You'll need a new $ 1195.00 rod in an 8 weight to throw it.

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

These are the true AFTMA line specs

AFTM Table

[td]
AFTM number

[/td][td]
In grains (range)

[/td][td]
In grams

[/td][td]
In ounces

[/td]
[td]
3

[/td][td]
100 +/- 6

[/td][td]
6.48

[/td][td]
0.228

[/td]
[td]
4

[/td][td]
120 +/- 6

[/td][td]
7.78

[/td][td]
0.274

[/td]
[td]
5

[/td][td]
140 +/- 6

[/td][td]
9.07

[/td][td]
0.32

[/td]
[td]
6

[/td][td]
160 +/- 8

[/td][td]
10.42

[/td][td]
0.366

[/td]
[td]
7

[/td][td]
185 +/- 8

[/td][td]
11.99

[/td][td]
0.422

[/td]
[td]
8

[/td][td]
210 +/- 8

[/td][td]
13.61

[/td][td]
0.48

[/td]
[td]
9

[/td][td]
240 +/- 10

[/td][td]
15.55

[/td][td]
0.55

[/td]
[td]
10

[/td][td]
280 +/- 10

[/td][td]
18.14

[/td][td]
0.64

[/td]
[td]
11

[/td][td]
330 +/- 12

[/td][td]
21.38

[/td][td]
0.75

[/td]
[td]
12

[/td][td]
380 +/- 12

[/td][td]
24.62

[/td][td]
0.86

[/td]​

These are the SA specs for a Titan line

Sink I/2/3	Sink I/3/5	Sink 3/5/7	LINE WEIGHT	HEAD LENGTH	TOTAL LENGTH	HEAD WEIGHT	GRAIN WEIGHT*
136044	103916	——-	WF-6-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	230gr / 14,9g	210gr / 13,6g
136051	103923	——-	WF-7-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	265gr / 17,7g	240gr / 15,6g
136068	103930	126298	WF-8-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	310gr / 20,1g	280gr / 18,2g
136075	103947	126304	WF-9-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	365gr / 23,6g	330gr / 21,4g
136082	103954	126311	WF-10-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	420gr / 27,2g	380gr / 24,6g
——-	——-	126328	WF-11-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	500gr / 32,4g	450gr / 29,2g
——-	——-	126144	WF-12-S	33.5’ / 10,2m	105.0’ / 32,0m	550gr / 35,6g	500gr / 32,4g

So my rod isn't built for casting this line?
I do have a couple spools of sonar titan in 7wt, I wonder if I should give them a try before I buy a $1200 rod! Do you have a line that you would recommend for my setup?

 

[hooker-of-men]

Thanks.. my leader is 7ft total including the wire tippet.. should I shorten the entire total length to around 5ft?
Does it seem that my rod reel and line are good to go?

If it's a fancy $20 prefab pike leader, don't go cutting it up on my sight unseen advice, especially given Tim's comment!

If you've got a bunch of line laying around, you might try a couple feet of 35 lb to a couple feet of 20 to the wire.

 

[RH1]

If it's a fancy $20 prefab pike leader, don't go cutting it up on my sight unseen advice, especially given Tim's comment!

If you've got a bunch of line laying around, you might try a couple feet of 35 lb to a couple feet of 20 to the wire.

It is not.. actually it's probably a 20yr old pike leader from a pile of my dad's old equipment
I have the wire and mono to make leaders so goimg to mess around with leader lengths

 

[TimMurphy]

So my rod isn't built for casting this line?
I do have a couple spools of sonar titan in 7wt, I wonder if I should give them a try before I buy a $1200 rod! Do you have a line that you would recommend for my setup?

Dear RH1,

By all means try your 7-weight line on your Avid. I may be much easier to cast. As an example, I bought the Sonar Titan in a 7 weight to try on a true 7 weight rod that I own. After 20 minutes I wanted to snap the rod on the gunnel of the boat and throw it in the river. After I got home, I read and compared the specs and knew it wasn't really the rod's fault and it was barely even my fault. The line is simply far too heavy for many rods to cast due to it being grossly overweight.

I bought a 7-weight SA Titan slow sinking intermediate tip line and it works light years better.

As far as leaders go, you do not need any more than 4 feet of mono and a bite tippet. My brother fished for pike in the Yukon territory this Summer and it was all sight fishing and casting to visible fish. Their guide cut every leader down to 3 feet and added bite tippet. They caught plenty of fish with that set up. Anything longer than 5 feet total is overkill for sinking flies and lines, they ain't leader shy.

And I was being a bit facetious about needing an $ 1195.00 rod. If you really do want to explore a new rod take a look at the Echo ION XL series rods, they are around $ 300.00 but often go on sale.

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

 

[RH1]

Dear RH1,

By all means try your 7-weight line on your Avid. I may be much easier to cast. As an example, I bought the Sonar Titan in a 7 weight to try on a true 7 weight rod that I own. After 20 minutes I wanted to snap the rod on the gunnel of the boat and throw it in the river. After I got home, I read and compared the specs and knew it wasn't really the rod's fault and it was barely even my fault. The line is simply far too heavy for many rods to cast due to it being grossly overweight.

I bought a 7-weight SA Titan slow sinking intermediate tip line and it works light years better.

As far as leaders go, you do not need any more than 4 feet of mono and a bite tippet. My brother fished for pike in the Yukon territory this Summer and it was all sight fishing and casting to visible fish. Their guide cut every leader down to 3 feet and added bite tippet. They caught plenty of fish with that set up. Anything longer than 5 feet total is overkill for sinking flies and lines, they ain't leader shy.

And I was being a bit facetious about needing an $ 1195.00 rod. If you really do want to explore a new rod take a look at the Echo ION XL series rods, they are around $ 300.00 but often go on sale.

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

Thanks for all of your help, I knew you were making light of rod prices.. my wife just shook her head when I told her I needed a $1200 rod to catch 30" pike, hahaha