Yellow Breeches

[vern]

Not really flyfishing related, but for consideration of adopting other nation's practices vs state and citizens rights:

Population of Pennsylvania is roughly 13,000,000
Although the square miles is fairly extensive, the inhabitable square mileage isn't that great. And it's multi-ethnic. It's a state. Not a nation.

Population of Sweden is neighborhood of 10,000,000 and seems to be a lot more inhabitable.
And though its population is changing, there is a difference between a nation having a population mutually identifiable, and a statehood in the United States.

(There are some other big differences as well for Sweden's population. It is home to at least one large umbrella global business that oversees a number of retail American businesses, and perhaps that allows it to provide some special social benefits to its citizens.)

https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/sweden

173,859.871 square miles Sweden vs 46,055 mi² Pa.

Pa. population density approximately 273.6 people per square mile.
Sweden population density approximately 7.8 people per square mile.

And that is just simple density calculations, not considering actual area habitable comparisons and dynamics.

Sorry. Messed that up yesterday. (Mind preoccupied.)

But point attempted to be made is that there is no comparison that would support the view point that Pennsylvania might consider adopting regulations of land ownership to that of Sweden.

 

[ROVERT]

I love this approach! How different we are here in the USA with all our need for private. This is another way.

I don't know how it works in Sweden but England has a right to roam and it does not cover any sporting use. That is all heavily privatized.

If the PFBC removes the special regs and stops stocking, I'll be very surprised if Allenbury doesn't just outright post the property.

 

[Bamboozle]

I'd LOVE to see how the local "freedom to roam" crown would feel if they awoke one morning to the smell of coffee and saw two tents on their front lawn..

THANK GOD, I don't live in Sweden...

 

[Mike]

I'd LOVE to see how the local "freedom to roam" crown would feel if they awoke one morning to the smell of coffee and saw two tents on their front lawn..

THANK GOD, I don't live in Sweden...

The “right to roam” laws in European countries where they are in place vary in what is allowed and what isn’t. It’s not just Scandinavia, but there are also such privileges to various degrees in the Germanic countries and there are also restrictions on areas where this may occur and activities that are permitted. I didn’t do an extensive search, and I didn’t check specifics for each country in great detail, but at least in one country where I saw it mentioned your example of camping would not be allowed, nor would entering someone’s back yard or going under or over fencing.

In general, the laws seem to be set up to primarily allow non-consumptive activities, especially hiking, which is how I was exposed to such laws. For that purpose, at least, I thought it was great! My exposure involved hiking on well-marked marked trails with signage, etc. and some went right past front doors or in between homes and out buildings on farms, often so that access could be gained to the network of trails on the mountains behind those properties.

In retrospect, perhaps because of this tradition from the “old country” along with the general respectfulness that was built into societies in those countries, this may be why there was so little posting, including along streams, in Berks County Pennsylvania Dutch (German) farm country when I was growing up.

 

[bdhoover77]

I'd LOVE to see how the local "freedom to roam" crown would feel if they awoke one morning to the smell of coffee and saw two tents on their front lawn..

THANK GOD, I don't live in Sweden.

It seems most Swedes would disagree with you…Sweden is consistently ranked as one of the happiest countries on the planet.

 

[Mrangler]

I still don’t know how this will be controlled by Allenberry. I have fished there every year for over 40 years, in that time I’ve seen one warden. The poaching and litter left behind at times is bad. Just because you put signs up doesn’t mean everyone will comply. Even if someone is caught, what are they going to do to them? With the the fish commission and yellow breeches anglers not stocking this area will be reduced to barely making it as a trout fishery. I never thought in my lifetime the historical Allenberry section of yellow breeches would be regulated like this ,with probably the owners being forced to further regulation. These are historical changes and sad for the public to probably lose such an iconic place.

 

[Bamboozle]

It seems most Swedes would disagree with you…Sweden is consistently ranked as one of the happiest countries on the planet.

Like a lot of others, they are happy I don't live there... 😉

 

[Bamboozle]

I still don’t know how this will be controlled by Allenberry. I have fished there every year for over 40 years, in that time I’ve seen one warden. The poaching and litter left behind at times is bad. Just because you put signs up doesn’t mean everyone will comply. Even if someone is caught, what are they going to do to them? With the the fish commission and yellow breeches anglers not stocking this area will be reduced to barely making it as a trout fishery. I never thought in my lifetime the historical Allenberry section of yellow breeches would be regulated like this ,with probably the owners being forced to further regulation. These are historical changes and sad for the public to probably lose such an iconic place.

I doubt you ever see a PFBC WCO on Section 03 ever again if PFBC stocking ends. If they want any teeth in the restrictions, it will be up to Allenberry to patrol their own property with their own folks like is done on other private water. After awhile if the patrols are aggressive enough, the bad behavior is diminished significantly.

As far as, "what are they going to do with them?" If posted, it is defiant trespass, a law enforced in many other locations and with cameras and other technology at their disposal, not particularly hard to prosecute.

I do know one thing about Allenberry from staying there when a big fight between guests at a wedding party broke out in the hallway of the Meadow Lodge. I called the office, but at that time (and MAYBE still?) there was NO staff on duty at night so I called 911.

The responding law enforcement agency for that area is the Pennsylvania State Police (PSP).

If Section 03 access goes away and people trespass and continue to litter & poach, I'll be as unhappy wasting PSP resources on that situation as much as I'm against wasting PFBC fish or WCO resources on property with restricted access.

However, maybe the litterbugs and poachers need to look at themselves in the mirror when they complain that they can't fish there any longer because they accelerated the possible or inevitable...

 

[DomR]

I'd LOVE to see how the local "freedom to roam" crown would feel if they awoke one morning to the smell of coffee and saw two tents on their front lawn..

THANK GOD, I don't live in Sweden...

Or someone grilling on their outdoor kitchen and deck!

 

[The Rodfather]

Looks like the Breeches Angler club put their foot down and said no to stocking near Allenberry. Anybody else have insight into this? Very good if that's the case. Still havent seen anything official from PFBC

 

[joebamboo]

Looks like the Breeches Angler club put their foot down and said no to stocking near Allenberry. Anybody else have insight into this? Very good if that's the case. Still havent seen anything official from PFBC

Correct, the club will not stock that section any longer.

 

[Dr.J 1952]

As I’ve said in a previous post, I fished from the lake outflow down to the Allenberry property many times going back thirty three years. Only fished below the dam a few times but always felt that was a little crowded. I first fished other parts of the Yellow Breeches back in the late 1970s when I lived in Harrisburg. I had some great times fishing the regulated area and had fished it in May, July , September and November. Created some great memories. Hadn’t fished it in about eleven years. Seems from what guys are saying things have changed in angler behavior and numbers. Sad to see it go.

 

[moon1284]

First off, the Delaware System is declared navigable in law & fact and there is NY Public Fishing Rights easement so while I may not agree that navigability should apply to that part of the river in 2026, the easement AND the navigability thing means the public can fish there.

Another question, is this your primary residence?

The reason I ask is the stream that runs through MY property is my primary residence. The stream is navigable by ducks through my land, but the stream (like the Yellow Breeches) has NOT been declared navigable in PA.

However, the stream at its mouth is much larger than the Breeches at its mouth so if some yahoo someday decided to fight the navigability, I could have people fishing on my property even if I don't want them ON my property.

However, I do let a guy bow hunt on my property, but that's because he asked, lets me know and technically asks every time he wants to access my property and didn't just walk up the creek with a sense of entitlement...

He also gives me venison. 😉

I might feel the same way if someone asked to fish the creek, but I want to be able to say no if I want...

Another thing, and I admit I don't know the legalities of this but IF a streambed is public property by virtue of navigability, can someone walk up a creek and hunt without the knowledge or permission of the adjacent property owners if hunting is legal in that area?

I get the "how to retrieve the game" thing, but what if the hunter dropped the deer right in the creek??

As far as me, I respect landowners rights, I never fish posted property without asking and if the answer is no, I don't stir the pot I just go elsewhere.

Maybe it's because I detest things like eminent domain and the adverse possession law that our own Governor is trying to exploit to steal property from his neighbor...

I dont like eminent domain either and I agree it's your right to post your land. And in all honesty if i get booted for trespassing (it doesn't happen much and its almost always somewhere ive fished for years where the property changes ownership), i don't go back. But I don't post my land and allow access to it through my property.

I'm not sure if the east branch is considered navigable or not. There is lots of posted land as well as signs that say no anchoring (yes I still anchor).

It's not my primary residence, but I dont care when kids run on my lawn at my primary residence. It's close to a river that sees way more fishermen than the upper delaware and its not uncommon for people to park on my right of way in the fall and I'm fine with it.

I'm sure you're a good guy and we probably agree on a lot of things. I look at it like I'm fortunate enough to own property that I can walk to and fish whenever I want- rather than I own property that I can restrict access to.

I grew up in a city with excellent fishing that i could walk to with great public access. As far as I know the lower river is 100% public access. The only thing determining where you can fish was how early you woke up. When I started fly fishing for trout I started seeing posted signs and I couldn't (and still can't) understand how someone could justify prevent access to fish that they don't own.
I understand landowners not wanting their land wrecked but to me its part of the game. And dont get me started on pay to play private water. I dont fish the salmon river but the letters dsr make me insane. I'd rather skip rocks than use a Douglass product.

 

[TimMurphy]

I dont like eminent domain either and I agree it's your right to post your land. And in all honesty if i get booted for trespassing (it doesn't happen much and its almost always somewhere ive fished for years where the property changes ownership), i don't go back. But I don't post my land and allow access to it through my property.

I'm not sure if the east branch is considered navigable or not. There is lots of posted land as well as signs that say no anchoring (yes I still anchor).

It's not my primary residence, but I dont care when kids run on my lawn at my primary residence. It's close to a river that sees way more fishermen than the upper delaware and its not uncommon for people to park on my right of way in the fall and I'm fine with it.

I'm sure you're a good guy and we probably agree on a lot of things. I look at it like I'm fortunate enough to own property that I can walk to and fish whenever I want- rather than I own property that I can restrict access to.

I grew up in a city with excellent fishing that i could walk to with great public access. As far as I know the lower river is 100% public access. The only thing determining where you can fish was how early you woke up. When I started fly fishing for trout I started seeing posted signs and I couldn't (and still can't) understand how someone could justify prevent access to fish that they don't own.
I understand landowners not wanting their land wrecked but to me its part of the game. And dont get me started on pay to play private water. I dont fish the salmon river but the letters dsr make me insane. I'd rather skip rocks than use a Douglass product.

Dear moon1284,

Consider this a long-distance hug dude. I no longer have my riverfront property in upstate NY, but when I did it never even occurred to me that I could restrict access to the river. I had people ask if they could walk my property to go fishing and never once declined. With a 120' x 30' driveway I just asked them to park on the right-hand side.

The world is changing and as more people see the opportunity to profit from public property like fish and birds or animals, I suspect it will only get worse. Though I often curse that fact that I am aging, I couldn't imagine being a kid today like when I grew up in the 1960's and 70's.

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

 

[troutbert]

Why is so hard to understand that the Breeches is non navigable and Allenberry owns both sides of the creek thus making it illegal to fish it without their permission? Walking in the water is walking on their property!

Stating your opinion AS IF it is established fact doesn't support your opinion.

To support your opinion, you have to provide facts and logical arguments.

 

[troutbert]

Does "open water" mean it's no longer "Stocked Trout Waters" and the scheduled April 22 stocking will be cancelled or Stocked Trout Waters with all tackle permitted?

If it is the former, that's the correct approach and the PFBC folks I spoke felt the same way.

If it is the latter, I'm disappointed...

The access is restricted by the landowner, so PFBC stocking of that stretch will end. That's PFBC policy.

 

[troutbert]

Mass email campaign to state senators and reps and media coverage and pushback on PFBC?

Probably none of that.

It's PFBC policy not to stock waters that are not open to public access. The landowner restricted access, so they will end stocking it. And no longer manage it as a special regulations area.

 

[Bamboozle]

The access is restricted by the landowner, so PFBC stocking of that stretch will end. That's PFBC policy.

I would assume in 4 days when the limited access begins they will make a decision but I'm not as confident the RIGHT thing will be done...

 

[TimB]

To support your opinion, you have to provide facts and logical arguments.

Well, that would be the end of PAFF... 🤣

 

[joebamboo]

Stating your opinion AS IF it is established fact doesn't support your opinion.

To support your opinion, you have to provide facts and logical arguments.

It's a fact, not an opinion. Navigable waterways in Pennsylvania are defined by their historic use as highways for commerce, granting the public rights to fish and navigate, largely managed by the PA Fish and Boat Commission. Major navigable rivers include the Allegheny, Susquehanna, Ohio, Monongahela, and Clarion. Public access includes these major rivers, streams, and lakes, while private, non-navigable streams are typically owned by adjacent landowners.