Yellow Breeches

[JG63]

This just in - I was driving Uber last night and picked up a rider who is a former Chef at Allenberry - we had an interesting chat - he said that he was let go in October of last year and that “Mrs. Kennedy” (co-owner) had been running rough shod over the administration of the property - he also said that shortly after his removal, many of the wait staff, sous chefs, kitchen staff quit their jobs due to the changes in approach for the facility - Allenberry will be more of a Spa/day destination than a resort as currently operated - though the plans for the golf course and sporting clays field has been overruled - as a result, the housing development is moving ahead full steam - and the proposed guest structure is more focused on short stay rather than week long guests to wine, dine, and fish - the ORVIS endorsed moniker should be everyone’s red flag - that’s why Mr. Baltz denied that it would happen a few years back - regardless of the outcome, the fishing there is substandard by breeches standards and the only reason to fill in the natural rock bottom with sand and “structure” is to make it habitat for stocked fish and anglers with $159 shirts - go to the stretch 200 yards above the dam (while you can) and turn over a few rocks - pry them from the sand, and see if you can find any nymphs, darters, or crayfish - it’s laughable and sad at the same time - especially when you’ll have to hope there’s a “free” permit available for you to play the managed course where the greats once fished 😂 Vince’s, Ed’s, and Charlie’s ghosts are shakin’ their heads - look carefully at the photo of me netting a trout (Allenberry stocker) for my brother in law last August - see the stream bottom? This is 200 yards DOWNSTREAM of the dam - while maybe not introduced as improvement, the sand and silt between the rocks wasn’t there 10 years ago - and the lack of hatches/rising fish tell the tale …

 

[ROVERT]

Under no circumstances should any state fish go into any area where access is controlled by a landowner. People can say they don't care about this section but, as mentioned, it could set a very concerning precedent.

If it is going to get fish from the state, any access limitations need to be controlled by the state. So, if there is a permit required, it needs to be obtained through the PFBC for anyone fishing there, Allenbury guests included. If Allenbury doesn't like that, that's fine but they don't get any state fish.

The PFBC can't make any exceptions here or tons of stream access will be lost. That will affect all of us, even those who essentially only fish for wild fish on public lands. When opportunity is lost, some will quit but many will crowd onto what is still available. This is why I can't get fully on board with the "never stock over wild fish" crowd.

 

[tjsingle]

Guided and private fishing for stockies is laughable, imagine paying a guide for that "experience". I don't want a cent of my license fee's going to that.

I can go drive to my local DHALO and stand in one spot for an hour and catch a bunch of 12" bows that were thrown in 3 weeks ago, for a lot less time/effort to drive to the YB.

 

[JG63]

From the Allenberry website: As an official Orvis-Endorsed Fly Fishing destination, Allenberry offers expert-guided excursions for all experience levels. Learn to cast like a pro, explore private water access, or refine your technique with seasoned instructors. This isn’t just fishing—it’s an immersive, hands-on experience in one of the Mid-Atlantic’s premier fly fishing locales.

This is actually hilarious in a “snake oil” kind of way - how do “pro” people cast? By “immersive” I suppose it includes “new breakthrough methods”of knot tying, reading the water, proper wrist form, how to spot fish, setting the hook, playing the 9.5 inch stocked brown, netting, fish foto, then unhooking and releasing the trophy to fight (for its life) another day - all in the name of conservation 😏 - or you can have the licensed guide with a while three years experience do it all for you and take your photo with your trophy - all for $400 - what a deal!

 

[dudemanspecial]

how do “pro” people cast?

I assume with $1300 rods gifted to them by the rod company.

 

[ROVERT]

Guided and private fishing for stockies is laughable, imagine paying a guide for that "experience". I don't want a cent of my license fee's going to that.

Those should be separated in my opinion. I don't want any of my license money going to stock fish that are not equally available to all license holders. So, I fully agree on the private fishing part.

I'm fine with guided fishing on state stocked trout waters, though. I'd actually much prefer it happens there than on wild trout streams. It certainly wouldn't be for me but if others want to do it, I'm ok with that.

One thing to note, unlike the majority of DHALO areas, there are wild fish to be caught in YB. That's why I fish there on occasion.

 

[tjsingle]

One thing to note, unlike the majority of DHALO areas, there are wild fish to be caught in YB. That's why I fish there on occasion.

Would be nice to see no stocking over the wilds 🙂

I was speaking on strictly on the C&R section and how it just seems silly to hire a guide to fish for stocked trout on private water, which the resort markets as an amenity. Especially when you can quite literally go to other sections of YB and catch the same cookie cutter fish without spending the $.

Not my scene, if I am hiring a guide its because I've never fished the area or want to float a river.

 

[TimB]

Heard a rumor at the FF show yesterday that they hope to create a pay-for-play guided exotic fishery with stocked barramundi in the Allenberry stretch. The barramundi in the recent NOS article was just a test case to see if the PFBC would allow it...🤣🤣🤣

 

[Olddominionsmoke]

Would be nice to see no stocking over the wilds 🙂

I was speaking on strictly on the C&R section and how it just seems silly to hire a guide to fish for stocked trout on private water, which the resort markets as an amenity. Especially when you can quite literally go to other sections of YB and catch the same cookie cutter fish without spending the $.

Not my scene, if I am hiring a guide its because I've never fished the area or want to float a river.

I think they are counting on the Orvis endorsement to bring in anglers with money that have no issue dropping $500 for a guide on top of the $1500 they are going to spend on lodging and food for a few days there. I agree I want a guide putting me on wild fish, but many people just want to say they caught X amount of fish.

 

[vern]

During the 1970s parking was not a problem at all.
Plenty of room and no damage to the property.
People played tennis and Ed Koch hadn't published his Fishing the Midge. Spring gatherings included presentations from many of the now icons. Charlie Fox was one of the nicest men ever with a fly rod. I got a nice bamboo from someone - I forget I gave it to a friend when I went into the Army and he told me he wasn't going to give it back even if I lived LOL.

The flyfishing population wasn't that big. A lot fewer people on the planet.

Almost no one guided.

In fact, after Ed Koch published his Fishing the Midge, it seemed guiding began on the stream. He ticked me and others off because he would bring a client downstream and be sometimes 10 feet in front.
Still got Ernest Schwiebert's first Nymphs book. He was one of the spring presenters back then.
Those times grew the sport differently.
It is private property.

As the population grew so did the number of cars parking in the stone lot at the top of the hill.
It began to be abused.

If the streamside property belonged to any individual they could cut off public access to that property.

Legally, one could walk the banks up to the flood zone. Not the flood plain.

If the ownership of Allenberry would now want to prohibit access to their side of the stream, access would have to be from the opposite side. If permitted. Just as any other stocked stream.
That wouldn't eliminate trout from occupying the water if the water upstream and downstream were stocked.

The business there does not have to comply with the desires of fishermen.
The fact that they allow access at all needs to be respected.

If anyone of you owned the property you would have the right to prevent everyone from parking and walking through.

Think about it.

As far as stream quality. It was never that good because it allowed wading.
Not just the modern siltation.
It was always that way for the most part.
In fact, although there would some caddis and mayfly and other hatches, a technique called the "shuffle" started taking hold.
The shuffle is just that.
Stand in the water above a holding stretch and shuffle food from the bottom and let the trout come feed just below and let a fly drift straight downstream.
That piece of water was never quality environment. Downstream yes. Upstream ... well. And then Kayaks began to float through.

Other parts of the Yellow Breeches had healthy structure. But the Allenberry stretch was pretty much attractive because it provided a fly fishing population a reliable population of catch and release.
It was really only attractive to fly fishing because it provided a dense population as opposed to the waters open to the general population.

 

[ROVERT]

If the streamside property belonged to any individual they could cut off public access to that property.

Legally, one could walk the banks up to the flood zone. Not the flood plain.

If the ownership of Allenberry would now want to prohibit access to their side of the stream, access would have to be from the opposite side. If permitted. Just as any other stocked stream.
That wouldn't eliminate trout from occupying the water if the water upstream and downstream were stocked.

The business there does not have to comply with the desires of fishermen.
The fact that they allow access at all needs to be respected.

If anyone of you owned the property you would have the right to prevent everyone from parking and walking through.

Think about it.
.

They own both sides. They are within their rights to limit access as they desire. It should not receive state fish if they restrict access in any way. If they post it or do the permit thing, those without permission cannot walk the stream unless it is deemed navigable by the courts.

If they move forward with their intentions, thar is their prerogative. It would be disappointing but it is what it is. We license holders should not be funding their trout park, though.

 

[JG63]

Heard a rumor at the FF show yesterday that they hope to create a pay-for-play guided exotic fishery with stocked barramundi in the Allenberry stretch. The barramundi in the recent NOS article was just a test case to see if the PFBC would allow it...🤣🤣🤣

It can be a catch and kill operation - the cook will prepare your Barramundi catch for an extra fee! 🥳

 

[Olddominionsmoke]

During the 1970s parking was not a problem at all.
Plenty of room and no damage to the property.
People played tennis and Ed Koch hadn't published his Fishing the Midge. Spring gatherings included presentations from many of the now icons. Charlie Fox was one of the nicest men ever with a fly rod. I got a nice bamboo from someone - I forget I gave it to a friend when I went into the Army and he told me he wasn't going to give it back even if I lived LOL.

The flyfishing population wasn't that big. A lot fewer people on the planet.

Almost no one guided.

In fact, after Ed Koch published his Fishing the Midge, it seemed guiding began on the stream. He ticked me and others off because he would bring a client downstream and be sometimes 10 feet in front.
Still got Ernest Schwiebert's first Nymphs book. He was one of the spring presenters back then.
Those times grew the sport differently.
It is private property.

As the population grew so did the number of cars parking in the stone lot at the top of the hill.
It began to be abused.

If the streamside property belonged to any individual they could cut off public access to that property.

Legally, one could walk the banks up to the flood zone. Not the flood plain.

If the ownership of Allenberry would now want to prohibit access to their side of the stream, access would have to be from the opposite side. If permitted. Just as any other stocked stream.
That wouldn't eliminate trout from occupying the water if the water upstream and downstream were stocked.

The business there does not have to comply with the desires of fishermen.
The fact that they allow access at all needs to be respected.

If anyone of you owned the property you would have the right to prevent everyone from parking and walking through.

Think about it.

As far as stream quality. It was never that good because it allowed wading.
Not just the modern siltation.
It was always that way for the most part.
In fact, although there would some caddis and mayfly and other hatches, a technique called the "shuffle" started taking hold.
The shuffle is just that.
Stand in the water above a holding stretch and shuffle food from the bottom and let the trout come feed just below and let a fly drift straight downstream.
That piece of water was never quality environment. Downstream yes. Upstream ... well. And then Kayaks began to float through.

Other parts of the Yellow Breeches had healthy structure. But the Allenberry stretch was pretty much attractive because it provided a fly fishing population a reliable population of catch and release.
It was really only attractive to fly fishing because it provided a dense population as opposed to the waters open to the general population.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that they can do what they want with their property, but limiting access after that stretch has already been stocked and is the only Catch & Release section is the reason why people are upset. They did not pay for those fish but are now limiting access to that portion of the stream. So both public (PFBC) and private (YBAC) money has now gone to fish that the general public cannot freely access. When private owners restrict access and post their property, the state stop stocking. Seems like they timed the posting to reap all of the benefits of fishing stocking. Is what they did legal, yes, but it’s still underhanded.

 

[JG63]

Guided and private fishing for stockies is laughable, imagine paying a guide for that "experience". I don't want a cent of my license fee's going to that.

I can go drive to my local DHALO and stand in one spot for an hour and catch a bunch of 12" bows that were thrown in 3 weeks ago, for a lot less time/effort to drive to the YB.

^ Donny Beaver did pretty well while shilling that type of operation

 

[tjsingle]

^ Donny Beaver did pretty well while shilling that type of operation

Fair point, haha. I'm fine with it, less buddies on the water I like to fish!

 

[vern]

(I thought the Little J trout fishing business legal battle had more or less settled that issue, but agree. I got way ahead of myself. Public transport flow of the YB ... ownership of streambed ...?)

 

[Matt_Geiman]

Fair point, haha. I'm fine with it, less buddies on the water I like to fish!

No, the worst part of this is our loss of access. Whether we fish the section or not, we have less water for us to spread out. As someone in the south central area, it’s getting really bad.

 

[Olddominionsmoke]

No, the worst part of this is our loss of access. Whether we fish the section or not, we have less water for us to spread out. As someone in the south central area, it’s getting really bad.

Exactly. According to the PFBC website, 83% of PA stocked waters are on private lands. About 70% of our wild trout waters are on private lands and 59% of our Class A trout waters are also on private lands.

Anything that sets a precedent for limiting stream access (stocked or wild) is a bad thing for all anglers across the state. Many on this forum may not like fishing for stocked fish, but a majority of the anglers in this state do. Less access means more anglers packed into a finite amount of streams they can access, both public or private. It goes for wild trout and Class A streams as well. My favorite stream is on public land and I have not seen 1 other angler on it, ever. If it became crowded, I would be devastated.

This issue is even worse in the more highly populated areas of our state.

Ask someone from Texas how easy it is to find available public land for outdoor activities in a state where ~95% of all land is privately owned. Compare that with some of the western states where they have greater than 50% of all land is public.

 

[vern]

In the old days there were volunteer waterways patrolmen in Pa. who would go to landowners (family famers many times) and seek permissions for public access. But land tracts were larger and not divided up into investment purchases.
Can't offer any suggestions for any means by which public access to stockable waters exists.
It truly appears that the loss of family farms, modern subdivision and engineering have decimated access and waters.
Maybe some commercial farms would allow access, but wouldn't count on it, especially because of liability.
Private club waters seem to be the norm of today.

Maybe more cooperation between Game Commission and PFBC and other public land holders?

(Agree that Texas is almost all private. For hunting and fishing. Has been for a long time.
The only public stocking experienced was bullheads in ponds. Bullheads taste good.)

 

[tomgamber]

No, the worst part of this is our loss of access. Whether we fish the section or not, we have less water for us to spread out. As someone in the south central area, it’s getting really bad.

I'm sorry, are you really complaining about not be able to access land that someone else owns? I totally get not stocking that stream, within that land, with publicly paid for fish, if access is restricted, but if it WERE YOUR LAND and that steam ran through it...? Out of the goodness of your heart, right? 🙄