What else is going on at Big Spring?

[wildtrout2]

It was so fat that it couldn’t swim properly.

It swam well enough to get to your fly. 😆

 

[JimKennedy]

Dear Board,

If a brown or rainbow is the product of multi-generational breeding in a particular stream, why aren't they considered natives of the stream?

It works for white people in PA, why not fish? 😉

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

I have had the same thought so many times.

 

[The_Sasquatch]

Except of course, the native brookie, our state fish. Along with 8 other states, making it the most commonly shared state fish designation in the country.

Right. I'm just saying, people constantly feel the need to correct someone when they say something like "native brown trout". I did too, for a long time. Now, I just let it slide.

 

[troutbert]

Right. I'm just saying, people constantly feel the need to correct someone when they say something like "native brown trout". I did too, for a long time. Now, I just let it slide.

I understand that part. But what does this mean?

"Actually, technically, there ARE no native X,Y,Z species in PA...."

It's in quotes. Were you quoting someone?

And what is the idea, the concept, referred to?

Are there people saying there are no native species in PA? I've never heard that before.

The number of species of plants and animals native to PA is very large.

 

[jifigz]

I understand that part. But what does this mean?

"Actually, technically, there ARE no native X,Y,Z species in PA...."

It's in quotes. Were you quoting someone?

And what is the idea, the concept, referred to?

Are there people saying there are no native species in PA? I've never heard that before.

The number of species of plants and animals native to PA is very large.

Troutbert, I think you're reading into this too much. I think Squatch was only saying he's through correcting people who use the term "native" instead of "wild." That's it. Nothing more. I could be wrong, but....

He is in no way implying there is no such thing as "no native species," and I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. His final sentence used those variables to talk about wild/non-native species, like the brown and rainbow trout.

 

[joebamboo]

Is the designation somone choses to use really that important?

 

[The_Sasquatch]

I understand that part. But what does this mean?

"Actually, technically, there ARE no native X,Y,Z species in PA...."

It's in quotes. Were you quoting someone?

And what is the idea, the concept, referred to?

Are there people saying there are no native species in PA? I've never heard that before.

The number of species of plants and animals native to PA is very large.

No, it was more of just a way to mock my typical response to someone in the past who said "I caught a nice native brownie" or something like that. X,Y,Z, species could be x=brown trout, y=rainbow trout, z=lightening trout, whatever. They were just variables to represent whatever non-native species someone might call "native"

 

[troutbert]

No, it was more of just a way to mock my typical response to someone in the past who said "I caught a nice native brownie" or something like that. X,Y,Z, species could be x=brown trout, y=rainbow trout, z=lightening trout, whatever. They were just variables to represent whatever non-native species someone might call "native"

I understand the meaning now. Thanks

 

[troutbert]

Is the designation somone choses to use really that important?

For the average fisherman, probably not.

For a watershed group and a company in the stream restoration business, accuracy on their websites helps maintain their credibility and inaccuracy hurts their credibility.

 

[The_Sasquatch]

For the average fisherman, probably not.

For a watershed group and a company in the stream restoration business, accuracy on their websites helps maintain their credibility and inaccuracy hurts their credibility.

This, I 100% agree with. So I was referring to the average angler. But yeah-100% right on this one. If you're a watershed group, conservation group, etc. you better have that stuff together.

 

[sarce]

If a brown or rainbow is the product of multi-generational breeding in a particular stream, why aren't they considered natives of the stream?

The brown and rainbow trout didn't bring themselves to PA.

They might be "naturalized" to a stream but that doesn't make it part of their native range.

 

[wildtrout2]

For the average fisherman, probably not.

For a watershed group and a company in the stream restoration business, accuracy on their websites helps maintain their credibility and inaccuracy hurts their credibility.

Well said, I agree 100%.

 

[sarce]

For the average fisherman, probably not.

For a watershed group and a company in the stream restoration business, accuracy on their websites helps maintain their credibility and inaccuracy hurts their credibility.

I'd argue it should matter for average fisherman, too. My opinion is society would be better off if we all paid a little more attention to detail and cared more about science.

 

[redietz]

Is the designation somone choses to use really that important?

If you're talking about conservation, yes. They're loaded terms when talking about what species are "invasive" and what species "belong" in a stream. I'm not making any value judgement here, but words do matter.

 

[td566]

Plant ID guides and keys have used the term “naturalized” for a long time. FWIW.

 

[jifigz]

Plant ID guides and keys have used the term “naturalized” for a long time. FWIW.

For certain things. I doubt they refer to things like knotweed and honeysuckle as naturalized. I bet they use the "I" word.

 

[tjsingle]

I'd argue it should matter for average fisherman, too. My opinion is society would be better off if we all paid a little more attention to detail and cared more about science.

^ This.

As much as I enjoy fishing for wild brown and rainbow trout in PA and other places, I've been to enough strongholds of native fish like Maine for brook trout and out west for cutthroat that I can't help but wonder what some of the places in PA could be like.

Its important to continually advocate for native fish and seek every avenue to protect them, and preserve their current range as much as possible. Big Spring's brook trout are cool, I've enjoyed fishing for them several times and hope they continue to thrive

 

[redietz]

Let's not turn this into a discussion of whether something is "invasive" or "introduced" (we've had enough of that.) I only wanted to point that words "native" and "wild" have connotations within the argument, and which ones you use say something about where your position in the debate.

 

[tjsingle]

I'll be interested to see the stream when the improvements are complete, from looking at the contractors website, it seems like it'll make a big difference!

 

[TimMurphy]

The brown and rainbow trout didn't bring themselves to PA.

They might be "naturalized" to a stream but that doesn't make it part of their native range.

Dear sarce,

I was being facetious with my post. My point was that there are many streams with self-sustaining trout populations that do not feature actual "native" brook trout in them. I would suspect that even in streams with 100% brook trout populations no more than perhaps 25% of them contain native strains indigenous to the streams.

Trout stocking began in earnest in PA at the end of the 1800's. 1898 for you sticklers. It started 20 years earlier in NY State with rainbows going into the headwaters of the two Delaware branches, as well as the Beaverkill and Willowemoc. Up until the last 10 years or so, many streams in PA were still stocked with hatchery brook trout. With that in mind the likelihood of hybridization between true "native" strains and hatchery brook trout is a virtual certainty.

The drivers behind the stocking are two-fold. First, was the extensive deforestation of the State of PA as well as NY. Secondly, and in reality, the most important was the angling public's desire to be able to fish for trout. Stocking became a sort of self-fulfilling prophesy to the point where many anglers, especially members of this board, realize it's not the answer, but many more keep insisting on the status quo.

All I could say is if PA magically returned to the days when all fish swimming in its waters were truly native fish a doubt many of y'all would be smoking racks of shad for sustenance. I know I wouldn't! 😉

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂