Bamboozle
Well-known member
It comes from a lot of folks out there, including some on PAFF...
What else is going on at Big Spring?
- Thread starter TedS
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bigslackwater
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The native rainbow and brown statement is worrisome. I suspect there is a non-profit watershed group behind this, probably working with PFBC. My concern is that a group got a grant and has to use the money up by the end of the year. So they quickly hired some engineering company who may or may not know exactly what they are doing, but are happy to start ripping stuff up and getting paid. I don't like the looks of the channelized rock edges. Sometime you have to let a stream be a stream. "loving it to death" come to mind.
The condition of the stream before these projects was nowhere close to being natural. The whole stream/floodplain system was VERY highly altered a long time ago.
There was a series of milldams along the stream that created ponds. After those ponds were drained, sediment accumulations remained, creating wide "flats."
The roads and parking lots near the stream and in the floodplains are also significant alterations.
When I read these threads, I think that some people are having "Dreams of Natural Streams." In other words imagining that the streams are in a natural condition. Most streams are very highly altered.
There was a series of milldams along the stream that created ponds. After those ponds were drained, sediment accumulations remained, creating wide "flats."
The roads and parking lots near the stream and in the floodplains are also significant alterations.
When I read these threads, I think that some people are having "Dreams of Natural Streams." In other words imagining that the streams are in a natural condition. Most streams are very highly altered.
Chaz
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The last time I was there I didn’t even wet my line, it was so chocked with weeds it couldn’t be fished. Though I’ve worked for many years on stream projects many fail to meet the goals. Floods in much of Pa cause a lot of the failures. That’s probably not the case with Big Spring. It looked to me like invasive are a big issue there. Certainly there mill dams caused many issues, flows aren’t very high and are quite slow, a low gradient stream. Narrowing the channel should improve the habitat, but it will have to be monitored closely.
The_Sasquatch
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I hear it so much now I just let it go. I know what they mean. It's getting to the point where it's almost pretentious to correct people. "Actually, technically, there ARE no native X,Y,Z species in PA...."
What does this mean?
dudemanspecial
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Those particular trout are native to that particular stream.......
wildtrout2
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Except of course, the native brookie, our state fish. Along with 8 other states, making it the most commonly shared state fish designation in the country.
JimKennedy
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Dead on. I first fished Big Spring back when the belief was that Paradise was a creek running through a hatchery. The ditch was packed with stocker fish, and some really big ones at that. All scared to death because as soon as one guy got finished fishing for one, the next guy would step right up.
But downstream was a muddy mess. For decades in the early 1900s, the stream had been home to a parade of private hatcheries. If you know where to look, you can still see remnants of the troughs. But by the late 1970s when I was a kid, the stream was about 50 yards wide and three inches deep from the ditch down into town.
I swore off fishing it sometime around 1985 and would never have gone back except a friend of mine started talking about the restoration project undertaken by a cast of characters including Norm Shires. Their work did a lot to improve the section from the ditch down to that first parking lot, and laid the groundwork for more restoration in the old hatchery grid. It's now all wild fish, one of the few places where you can catch a non-stocked trout trifecta.
The trout are harder to see, because they weren't hatchery raised, so the crowds mesmerized by the hundreds of big fish in a clear creek are gone. But I pay a visit once or twice a year now and thoroughly enjoy fishing, even though I don't always land one.
The work done to restore the creek has gone a long way to reverse serious damage done to the creek in the good old days.
I kind of agree with this, but sometimes I still correct people, especially my 9th grade students. It's easier to just know what people mean when they call them "natives" and move on with life..
wildtrout2
Well-known member
When I hear someone say "native" when "wild" is correct, I'll usually take the time to teach them the difference between the two, so they can learn. I'll do it in such a way that they won't feel belittled. They usually appreciate my effort.
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wildtrout2
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One of the great mysteries of the trout fishing world. 😉
Fly-Swatter
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Connotation vs. denotation. Also, regarding humans, and fish, how far back should we go? Europeans are not technically indigenous but can be "native" (place of birth) to PA. Regarding trout, fly fishers (and biologist, I think) mostly all understand "native" to mean that the species existed before European settlements. I'm sure, but many outside our insular community may not. On a practical level, it may be just semantics
Bamboozle
Well-known member
In my experience, I hear the "native" thing more in certain PA geographies than others with NEPA and western PA folks most likely in my experience to use the term as a catchall for wild fish.
Because I'm NOT a biologist or an ichthyologist taking scale samples, I can't be positively certain a brookie I caught isn't the descendant of some hatchery stocking. Therefore, I refer to all suspected wild trout I catch, "wild' and never bother using the term "native"...
Lest someone thinks I hail from Hop Bottom or the Burgh. 😉
Because I'm NOT a biologist or an ichthyologist taking scale samples, I can't be positively certain a brookie I caught isn't the descendant of some hatchery stocking. Therefore, I refer to all suspected wild trout I catch, "wild' and never bother using the term "native"...
Lest someone thinks I hail from Hop Bottom or the Burgh. 😉
Roofin' Trouter
Well-known member
Hopefully the work being done on Big Spring is beneficial for years to come.
I don't really care about fish pronouns, nouns, or adjectives. I know what people mean when they say " native brownie" . What does identifying a wild brown trout as a " native brownie" have to do with running excavation equipment and following a plan?
I don't really care about fish pronouns, nouns, or adjectives. I know what people mean when they say " native brownie" . What does identifying a wild brown trout as a " native brownie" have to do with running excavation equipment and following a plan?
Mikey2006
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It doesn’t. I just thought it was funny since there are barely any browns in the area being worked on. I was there yesterday evening as well and they were hard at work putting more habitat structures in the stream. I will say that stretch is looking a whole lot better than it did before, although not exactly “natural”. I really hope it doesn’t follow the same path as so many of the other limestoners in the CV
wildtrout2
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That brookie isn't missing ANY meals!
Mikey2006
Well-known member
It was so fat that it couldn’t swim properly. I set the hook and basically dragged it in across the surface, all it could do was wiggle from side to side. I thought maybe it had just eaten a smaller trout but there was no tail sticking out of its throat and I felt its stomach and there wasn’t a big lump or anything. Just gorging itself on cress bugs I guess
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