Data Center along Swatara Creek

[6xAdams(Jones)]

I recommend attending what I'm sure will be public meetings to hear and voice the proven and unproven arguments for and against building and maintaining a data center in this location.
Bear in mind:
- Water is not generally used but constantly changes state in cycles. (We're all drinking and flushing the same water that the dinosaurs drank and flushed.)
- If we NIMBY reliable electrical infrastructure, we also need to NIMBY infrastructure that needs - and negotiates payment for - reliable electricity.
- Ensure the builder/maintainer of any infrastructure pays taxes commensurate with acre- and megawatt-use.
- Noise is becoming the biggest argument against data centers, especially when installed near residential areas. (Cyber-coin puts out a chronic clicking in addition to the hum.)

 

[shortrod]

The vast majority of data centers are being used for traditional computing not "AI".

I think you are under estimating the impact of AI today and in the near future.

 

[gfenlikestolosepasswords]

So your answer to my first question is no.

Speaking of conflating, you forgot to include increased data demands for Bitcoin, crypto, and AI in your list of uses. The historical use of data centers (which power things like PAFF) has little to do with the mad rush to build new large-scale centers in ecologically sensitive areas. It's a distinction that is anything but "dumb."

You're free to hate on crypto currencies, I've never understood them either. Modern AI is remarkably helpful and I'm not going to deny it is. It's also not true AI, or AGI as they now call it.

But it's the stepping stone. And the world is racing for it. There are positives and negatives about that, however that's not the discussion here. The first country to get it is going to have a massive advantage.

If you don't think the sudden massive backlash against "AI" is being engineered by some group, somewhere, then I suggest you take a good step back and look at it. Because AGI can't be avoided, can't be denied, can't be stopped and like the space race someone's gotta get to it first.

You're being manipulated.

 

[gfenlikestolosepasswords]

I think you are under estimating the impact of AI today and in the near future.

I assure you I am not. I suspect you're too focussed on things like "it's being used by perverts to make fake photos and porn chat girlfriends."

There's much more at stake there. That's not AI.

 

[gfenlikestolosepasswords]

- Noise is becoming the biggest argument against data centers, especially when installed near residential areas. (Cyber-coin puts out a chronic clicking in addition to the hum.)

Crypto mining is not really any different than anythign else. Yes, it is high electricity use, but the short version is that for the most part it runs off of what was traditionally sold as a GPU ("graphics processing unit" vs CPU or "central processing unit).

GPUs are infinitely better at math than traditional CPUs, they're designed for it. That's why crypto mining uses them. So does the current AI/LLM technology.

In the wild west early days of crypto people bought mutliple high end video cards, stuffed them into a generic PC and then offloaded all the heavy work to the video boards to "mine." Gamers were pissed because that's where all the video cards were being bought for.

Now they make the same things but without all the extra bits on them for video use. Just dropping the cores onto boards for effective GPU processing. That said, gamers are still pissed because nVidia channels their output into those rather than consumer gear.

But in the end, there's no "special noise" in crypto.

 

[shortrod]

It's also not true AI, or AGI as they now call it.

But it's the stepping stone. And the world is racing for it. ... The first country to get it is going to have a massive advantage. ...

For the very short period of time before humans become extinct.

 

[riverwhy]

For the very short period of time before humans become extinct.

The whole “we have got to have it first” mentality is what will ultimately trash our
Planet if it hasn’t already. That worked to our advantage for a while for sure. Now we are at point where nations need to come together and collaborate on how to utilize AI so that it serves humanity and conserves resources. Now the mentality in control seems to be to dominate others and make a buck anyway you can. I assure you unfettered AI development will not leave to a “golden age”. Maybe those who call people alarmists simply because they want some say in their communities and region and the environment already have a spaceship ticket with Musk or Thiel to find some Big Rock Candy mountain in another galaxy. Putting full trust in these evil corporate shills and the clowns in government right now will only lead to disaster and our grandkids saying “what have they done.”

 

[shortrod]

I suspect you're too focussed on things like "it's being used by perverts to make fake photos and porn chat girlfriends."

Your suspisions are way off base. I admitt I do not know much about the tech of making fake photos. Mostly because I don't care. The tech for "porn chat girlfriends" has been around since the 60s and is demonstrated to anyone that wants with "M-x doctor" in Gnu Emacs.

My focus is on the fact that the U.S. has transitioned from farming to industrial to services. When machines are cheaper at delivering the services than humans, that means every human that provides a service becomes obsolete.

 

[DaveKile]

You're using it right now, you know. Where do you think this website lives, on an old G4 under Dave's desk?

How about every other website you visit. Where your text messages live. Your call logs. Your medical data. Your office email. Your spreadsheets. Your gmail account. Every web search you've ever done. Every porn you've ever websearched up watch.

All of it.

Every. Last. Bit. And it's been there more or less for the last 25 years. Prior to that it was possibly in a little room in the back of your job site, but technically, that too is in fact a data center they just used to call them "telco closets."

My knowledge? I've been working in a local data center for that 25 years now. For a company that has owned about two dozen across the country.

Very good memory. It was a G4 Macintosh server back 30 years ago under my office desk.

AI data centers are often portrayed as either worse than a nuclear power plant or better than a factory full of new green jobs. The truth has been obscured by both sides. Like most things, they can be bad if done improperly and reasonably good if built in the right location with proper planning.

Last I looked, there were about 52 proposed new AI data centers across Pennsylvania. That is a lot of data centers for one state. In doing further research, it seems many of these projects are highly speculative and driven more by land developers than by actual technology companies with specific needs and plans. Not too far down the road, much of your AI usage may be handled directly by your smartphone or computer. I think there is overbuilding in the AI data center space, and there is a real chance of a bubble.

I am also tired of the media framing every issue as some sort of existential threat that requires everyone to run around with their hair on fire.

Like most controversial topics, somewhere in the middle lies the truth.

 

[wildtrout2]

The truth has been obscured by both sides. Like most things, they can be bad if done improperly and reasonably good if built in the right location with proper planning.

I think that's a big part of the issue. Bottom line, there's no stopping it.

 

[riverwhy]

Very good memory. It was a G4 Macintosh server back 30 years ago under my office desk.

AI data centers are often portrayed as either worse than a nuclear power plant or better than a factory full of new green jobs. The truth has been obscured by both sides. Like most things, they can be bad if done improperly and reasonably good if built in the right location with proper planning.

Last I looked, there were about 52 proposed new AI data centers across Pennsylvania. That is a lot of data centers for one state. In doing further research, it seems many of these projects are highly speculative and driven more by land developers than by actual technology companies with specific needs and plans. Not too far down the road, much of your AI usage may be handled directly by your smartphone or computer. I think there is overbuilding in the AI data center space, and there is a real chance of a bubble.

I am also tired of the media framing every issue as some sort of existential threat that requires everyone to run around with their hair on fire.

Like most controversial topics, somewhere in the middle lies the truth.

I have seen very little of the media framing this as an existential threat. Maybe on Social Media. Yes people do panic if they hear one is going up in their backyard. That’s because these things are often rammed through quickly before citizens have a chance for adequate
Input. Look at how the feds have been operating lately. They do things that are borderline or blatantly illegal before courts can even rule on them. It
Gives me no solace you saying that these things are being overbuilt. If annything that shows lack oversight and planning. Also if you look around there are some very smart people who have concerns that need to be addressed before diving headfirst into this technology.

 

[wildtrout2]

I have seen very little of the media framing this as an existential threat. Maybe on Social Media. Yes people do panic if they hear one is going up in their backyard. That’s because these things are often rammed through quickly before citizens have a chance for adequate
Input.

It has been mentioned in the media that jobs are being lost because of AI, and it'll get worse. You're right, nobody wants it in their backyard.

 

[gfenlikestolosepasswords]

Very good memory. It was a G4 Macintosh server back 30 years ago under my office desk.

The pretty one with the handles or an actual X Serve?

But I do remember that because that's the sort of obscure detail that sticks out. Not many people hosting off Macs then or now. For what it's worth, I'm about to plug a 2009 iMac in because it's the only thing I own that still supports Firewire.

As for the rest of that, you're right. There is a middle ground to all of this. The bizarre turn people have taken against AI is maddening because it's not only going to happen but you want at least someone you can vaguely trust to be the ones who do it.

Right now it's the USA or the PRC. No matter how you might feel about the US there's no reasonable way anyone wants the PRC to win that race.

Finally, I notice the people who are the loudest about data centers are online while doing it. The irony is lost on them.

 

[gfenlikestolosepasswords]

My focus is on the fact that the U.S. has transitioned from farming to industrial to services. When machines are cheaper at delivering the services than humans, that means every human that provides a service becomes obsolete.

That's nice, and there's no stopping it. The Luddites lost and so will everyone this time, too.

 

[gfenlikestolosepasswords]

The whole “we have got to have it first” mentality is what will ultimately trash our
Planet if it hasn’t already.

You're not incorrect. There should be guidelines and lets hope we have them but the answer is the same: PRC or USA. Pick one. No moving the goalposts and picking someone else because it's not going to happen there.

 

[DaveKile]

I have seen very little of the media framing this as an existential threat. Maybe on Social Media. Yes people do panic if they hear one is going up in their backyard. That’s because these things are often rammed through quickly before citizens have a chance for adequate
Input. Look at how the feds have been operating lately. They do things that are borderline or blatantly illegal before courts can even rule on them. It
Gives me no solace you saying that these things are being overbuilt. If annything that shows lack oversight and planning. Also if you look around there are some very smart people who have concerns that need to be addressed before diving headfirst into this technology.

I feel the media is very hyperbolic and what I mean by saying "every issue as some sort of existential threat" there is very little balanced coverage of issue. The media has almost every issue dialed up to "11". Fear captures our attention and motivates people. If you even watch the national TV news, the language they use throughout the broadcast reflects this in almost every piece they do for 30 mins. Except for the last one, which usually some warm fluff piece on pandas or something cute. The news is just a live nightly performance from a guy reading a script on a teleprompter.

The Media Feeds Our Fears​

The Media Feeds Our Fears

We’re bombarded by negative news, causing us to be more fearful than we should. This can lead us to make faulty decisions based on skewed perceptions.

www.psychologytoday.com

Artificial intelligence could lead to extinction, experts warn​

Artificial intelligence could lead to extinction, experts warn

Heads of OpenAI, Google Deepmind and Anthropic say the threat is as great as pandemics and nuclear war.

www.bbc.com

 

[TimB]

Like most things, they can be bad if done improperly and reasonably good if built in the right location with proper planning.

Exactly. I think that gets to the crux of the OP. Some people are concerned that this may be in the wrong location, especially regarding potential effects on a popular fishery. But in true PAFF fashion, it went off the rails. Glad to see it only took another 30-plus posts to come back to the issue at hand.

 

[DaveKile]

The pretty one with the handles or an actual X Serve?

But I do remember that because that's the sort of obscure detail that sticks out. Not many people hosting off Macs then or now. For what it's worth, I'm about to plug a 2009 iMac in because it's the only thing I own that still supports Firewire.

As for the rest of that, you're right. There is a middle ground to all of this. The bizarre turn people have taken against AI is maddening because it's not only going to happen but you want at least someone you can vaguely trust to be the ones who do it.

Right now it's the USA or the PRC. No matter how you might feel about the US there's no reasonable way anyone wants the PRC to win that race.

Finally, I notice the people who are the loudest about data centers are online while doing it. The irony is lost on them.

OMG I can't remember which one, but I do remember firewire. I think you're too young for SCSI ?

 

[tomgamber]

..Last I looked, there were about 52 proposed new AI data centers across Pennsylvania..

Proposed is the key. Like fracking they'll saturate P&Z meetings. Like throwing $#!+ at the wall and seeing what sticks. Many will fail but they learn what works. Not a horrible process but it creates the illusion that way more are coming than really are.

 

[DaveKile]

Exactly. I think that gets to the crux of the OP. Some people are concerned that this may be in the wrong location, especially regarding potential effects on a popular fishery. But in true PAFF fashion, it went off the rails. Glad to see it only took another 30-plus posts to come back to the issue at hand.

Tim,

I'm not for building these things all over nor in the wrong place. They are gonna happen I just hope we have good governance to see what can and shouldn't work. My concern is this is some very new technology and done too quickly there well be some bad decisions. I'm not sure of these rural areas. Have the expertise or experience in dealing with matters like this.