Wonder why the feeshin’ ain’t what it wuz…

[McSneek]

I’m tired of being the Lorax with this stuff - I can take you to thirty or so spots within a half hour of Mechanicsburg and show you the lack of key food chain items (bugs/crayfish/macro IV) and the subsequent dearth of baitfish, darters, panfish, and predatory fish - I can also highlight the overall LACK of Egrets, Great Blue Herons, Mergansers etc - the fish just aren’t around , and this has something to do with it:

https://www.lowersusquehannariverkeeper.org/2025bacteriamonitoringseasonenglish-1

Lack of herons and mergansers? Not where I fish! They’re everywhere!

 

[5footfenwick]

Lack of herons and mergansers? Not where I fish! They’re everywhere!

 

[nymphingmaniac]

Dear Mikey2006,

And therein lies the rub. It is much easier to force a rural community to accept the promise of jobs and tax relief, neither or which are real, than it is to pay market price for valuable land with existing power services.

If I were King, there would be an alternative. I'd welcome data centers to all the previously destroyed land occupied by dying or dead shopping malls. The power infrastructure is already largely in place. A little demolition work and you have a perfect parcel to redevelop.

But I ain't King, and people are stupid and gullible, especially when jobs and money are waved around like confetti. So, we are left with destroying acreage with nothing on it, because everything single GD square inch of land needs a monetary providing purpose, otherwise it is just wasted fallow land.

I'm glad I'm kind of old for the future is not too appealing.

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

the cost of the land is nothing. Outside of rural areas, legal/zoning obstruction (the NIMBY-ism we are discussing), high taxes, in some cases crime, and these areas you propose have outdated infrastructure that is extremely expensive to upgrade. Is it easier to build 30 miles of new road or replace 3 miles of 76 in Philly with intermittent lane closures and night work?
The reason why Harrisburg or Altoona hadn't (or maybe won't anytime soon if ever) upgraded and separate their sanitary and storm sewer systems is the huge cost of and disruption of ripping up major streets.

 

[barrybarry]

I believe the data is collected by group members/sponsors and not readily available - not sure if they do their own field work or who is qualified - but I’m sure if the facts found were skewed, a government agency could be quick to correct the error - there are no quick and easy answers to these issues, but growing population, substandard sewage treatment, and urban sprawl these last 50+ years have had an undeniably bad effect on our waterways … somebody once said a third of the Earth’s waters will turn “bitter” …

I help sample two areas along the Susquehanna. (Steelton and Falmouth) I'm not a scientist but the people who receive the samples are well-versed in water quality. All samples are taken between 10-3 on Thursday, in pre-prepared sealed bottles, and put on ice. The amount of data that's recorded is extensive.
The samples are dropped off at the RiverKeepers in Wrightsville. The water is tested at 12 noon on Friday. Results are posted on Saturday.
I'm often amazed at the results found in the small streams. Muddy Creek in York and The Yellow Breeches test poorly yet they look beautiful to me. Looks can be deceiving.

 

[troutbert]

I help sample two areas along the Susquehanna. (Steelton and Falmouth) I'm not a scientist but the people who receive the samples are well-versed in water quality. All samples are taken between 10-3 on Thursday, in pre-prepared sealed bottles, and put on ice. The amount of data that's recorded is extensive.
The samples are dropped off at the RiverKeepers in Wrightsville. The water is tested at 12 noon on Friday. Results are posted on Saturday.
I'm often amazed at the results found in the small streams. Muddy Creek in York and The Yellow Breeches test poorly yet they look beautiful to me. Looks can be deceiving.

For the streams with high bacterial counts, what are the main pollution sources causing that?

 

[JG63]

For the streams with high bacterial counts, what are the main pollution sources causing that?

TB, improperly treated sewage has been a documented fact along the whole lower Conodoguinet for at least two decades - the infrastructure of the whole Cumberland valley has not been designed for the population growth these last 40 odd years - the whole city of Harrisburg adds tons of raw untreated sewage directly into the Susquehanna when the levels come up to a certain (unknown to me) river stage level that is met during flood stages. Most Anglers in the know in our area (myself included) will not wet wade the Conodoguinet at any time doing the season - many of us will not fish it at all as THERE ARE NO FISH in many stretches from Carlisle to the mouth in West Fairview - what is the point of trying to fish a half mile stretch of level shin deep sandy bottom 80F water with no plants, no large rock/tree structure, no crayfish, no baitfish, and no gamefish? As I said - the egrets and herons know where there ISN’T food and they avoid it too - that is only one example of a creek in distress in our greater Harrisburg/York area - I’m tired of sounding the alarm anymore - this last Thursday my two sons covered a controlled 4 hour float in kayaks from PA Commission Good Hope access to East Penn Township Acri Meadows park and yielded this one emaciated Smallmouth - a float that twenty years ago would have yielded dozens of different year class Smallmouth, Fallfish, Red Breast Sunfish, Rock Bass, and even Yellow Bullheads - I majored in biology my first year in college, had advanced Bio in High School, have 50+ years experience fishing the local CV area creaks and rivers - to that end I am NO self righteous expert regarding all matters of Biohazard, road runoff, aquifer stress, no till damage to soil microbes etc etc etc - I AM qualified to make the statement that the fishing sucks in Cumberland county and it is directly caused by humans trying to fix the problems they’ve caused to the respective ecosystems in question

 

[JG63]

Data centers and warehouses are the byproduct of the elimination of many good jobs. It's progress for technology and capitalism, not the middle class workers.

Yeah - the ironic part is the middle class depends on capitalism to even exist …

 

[JG63]

Dear Mikey2006,

And therein lies the rub. It is much easier to force a rural community to accept the promise of jobs and tax relief, neither or which are real, than it is to pay market price for valuable land with existing power services.

If I were King, there would be an alternative. I'd welcome data centers to all the previously destroyed land occupied by dying or dead shopping malls. The power infrastructure is already largely in place. A little demolition work and you have a perfect parcel to redevelop.

But I ain't King, and people are stupid and gullible, especially when jobs and money are waved around like confetti. So, we are left with destroying acreage with nothing on it, because everything single GD square inch of land needs a monetary providing purpose, otherwise it is just wasted fallow land.

I'm glad I'm kind of old for the future is not too appealing.

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

Dear Tim,

If you were King, some whacked out splinter group would protest in your front lawn about the issues of HAVING a King but then smile and accept your presence if you visited the established governmental chambers … like some US politico types we all know ….

Regards,

John Gooderham 🙂

PS: I’d vote for you even if you were running for King 😎

 

[JG63]

Lack of herons and mergansers? Not where I fish! They’re everywhere!

Yes - those birds are at your local creek because their food items are there - they are not in my local creek because the food ISN’T there 🙄

 

[dudemanspecial]

Yeah - the ironic part is the middle class depends on capitalism to even exist …

It's a delicate and interesting balance for sure, one that every involved party has their good parts and bad parts.

Corporate greed can be seen scratching and clawing for control at a rate not seen since the days before workers unions existed, but the hoi palloi definitely has a spending problem......most people I know that complain about the expenses of life own a boat, rv, camp / property, 80k pickup trucks, multiple vacations etc. I can't imagine how much debt the average joe carries to support their lifestyle.

Same thing with the data centers. Everyone complains about them while their teenagers upload 5 videos on tiktok of them shaking their *** every day causing the need for them.

 

[JG63]

I help sample two areas along the Susquehanna. (Steelton and Falmouth) I'm not a scientist but the people who receive the samples are well-versed in water quality. All samples are taken between 10-3 on Thursday, in pre-prepared sealed bottles, and put on ice. The amount of data that's recorded is extensive.
The samples are dropped off at the RiverKeepers in Wrightsville. The water is tested at 12 noon on Friday. Results are posted on Saturday.
I'm often amazed at the results found in the small streams. Muddy Creek in York and The Yellow Breeches test poorly yet they look beautiful to me. Looks can be deceiving.

Thank you for your commitment to doing this - I’m hoping the Riverkeeper organization doesn’t restrict anyone for performing the field work - one of the main reasons I ditched a certain Trout conservation “non profit” group is because you had to be of a certain status or “connected” to participate in improvement projects

 

[barrybarry]

The Riverkeeper organization is very open to anyone. All you need to do is volunteer.
Volunteers spend quite a bit of their own money(gas) and time. I recently met another volunteer that samples lower York. He puts 90 miles on his car every Thursday.
If you’re interested in the testing methods, stop in their office in Wrightsville on Friday around noon. I’m sure they’d be happy to explain the methods and data.

 

[riverwhy]

Does Riverkeeper sample the Swatara? I was fishing under the Union Deposit bridge a few weeks ago when some dude lowered two devices off the top of the bridge, one small that
Looked like a thermos and then a bucket. At first I thought he was getting drinking water!

 

[barrybarry]

That's not typically how we sample. It's sampled in two locations.

 

[JimKennedy]

In the past 20 to 25 years, enforcement and general regard for the requirements of the US clean water act have diminished greatly.

This is partly because towns and counties love development, but do not like paying for infrastructure like wastewater treatment plants.

On top of that, clean water act regulations are rolled into what people seeking public office refer to as needless red tape and over regulation.

It’s over regulation when you don’t want to pay for silt control when you are building, or dedicate a portion of your property to storm water management.

But if you don’t want bacterial and algae blooms resulting from street crud and untreated sewage, the regulations are necessary.

Regulations are unnecessary if you an emptying your bucket in the creek and the current is washing it downstream. But if the guy living upstream from you insists on emptying his bucket so his filth floats right to you, it’s quite another story.

 

[TimMurphy]

the cost of the land is nothing. Outside of rural areas, legal/zoning obstruction (the NIMBY-ism we are discussing), high taxes, in some cases crime, and these areas you propose have outdated infrastructure that is extremely expensive to upgrade. Is it easier to build 30 miles of new road or replace 3 miles of 76 in Philly with intermittent lane closures and night work?
The reason why Harrisburg or Altoona hadn't (or maybe won't anytime soon if ever) upgraded and separate their sanitary and storm sewer systems is the huge cost of and disruption of ripping up major streets.

Dear nymphingmaniac,

So, your solution is wreck someplace else so that no money needs to be expended to fix the existing problems. That's an awesome plan! Kick the can down the road and repeat as necessary until everything turns to crap. Then relocate 40 more miles away!

That is exactly the attitude that is turning places into sprawling crapholes all across this State. State College being a prime example. It's not sustainable and it won't be long until State College is just like your examples of Harrisburg and Altoona, unable to maintain its infrastructure. We need to do better!

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

 

[riverwhy]

TB, improperly treated sewage has been a documented fact along the whole lower Conodoguinet for at least two decades - the infrastructure of the whole Cumberland valley has not been designed for the population growth these last 40 odd years - the whole city of Harrisburg adds tons of raw untreated sewage directly into the Susquehanna when the levels come up to a certain (unknown to me) river stage level that is met during flood stages. Most Anglers in the know in our area (myself included) will not wet wade the Conodoguinet at any time doing the season - many of us will not fish it at all as THERE ARE NO FISH in many stretches from Carlisle to the mouth in West Fairview - what is the point of trying to fish a half mile stretch of level shin deep sandy bottom 80F water with no plants, no large rock/tree structure, no crayfish, no baitfish, and no gamefish? As I said - the egrets and herons know where there ISN’T food and they avoid it too - that is only one example of a creek in distress in our greater Harrisburg/York area - I’m tired of sounding the alarm anymore - this last Thursday my two sons covered a controlled 4 hour float in kayaks from PA Commission Good Hope access to East Penn Township Acri Meadows park and yielded this one emaciated Smallmouth - a float that twenty years ago would have yielded dozens of different year class Smallmouth, Fallfish, Red Breast Sunfish, Rock Bass, and even Yellow Bullheads - I majored in biology my first year in college, had advanced Bio in High School, have 50+ years experience fishing the local CV area creaks and rivers - to that end I am NO self righteous expert regarding all matters of Biohazard, road runoff, aquifer stress, no till damage to soil microbes etc etc etc - I AM qualified to make the statement that the fishing sucks in Cumberland county and it is directly caused by humans trying to fix the problems they’ve caused to the respective ecosystems in question

Last week I flew into HIA right over the Conny. The number of developments was staggering.

 

[rustbeltwilds]

It's a delicate and interesting balance for sure, one that every involved party has their good parts and bad parts.

Corporate greed can be seen scratching and clawing for control at a rate not seen since the days before workers unions existed, but the hoi palloi definitely has a spending problem......most people I know that complain about the expenses of life own a boat, rv, camp / property, 80k pickup trucks, multiple vacations etc. I can't imagine how much debt the average joe carries to support their lifestyle.

Same thing with the data centers. Everyone complains about them while their teenagers upload 5 videos on tiktok of them shaking their *** every day causing the need for them.

Well said the part of the people who complain about the expenses wich for the most part is correct 100 pct we have a culture that pushes this on us. Also keeping up with the neighbors...glad i live a simple life. Practicle fishing equip. But remember ive never seen a u haul behind a hearse.

 

[Roofin' Trouter]

Years ago I remember watching Save Our Land, Save Our Towns on PBS. Might be able to find it on Youtube. There may be some answers in there.

 

[riverwhy]

Years ago I remember watching Save Our Land, Save Our Towns on PBS. Might be able to find it on Youtube. There may be some answers in there.

I used this in my High School Geography class back in the 90’s. We explored his ideas in detail and I used it as a springboard to explore local historical and natural areas and celebrate their communities. I also organized some combined field trips with the Pa History teacher.
The documentary and book by Tom Hyland advocated the following ideas:
1. Celebrating local history and businesses.
2. Saving and or repurposing historical buildings and reusing old industrial sites.
3. Urban growth boundaries and planning on a larger scale.
4. Promoting walkability.
5. The high cost of building new infrastructure.
6. Use of public transportation. He emphasized how big auto made us dependent on cars and how much space was needed and taken to accommodate them. Also how highways isolated and destroyed communities.
As I now look at Ephrata, Lancaster County and the nation as a whole, it seems like very few of his ideas have taken hold. Why?
1. Big money from realtors and developers.
2. Resistance to regional planning. My brother was a local supervisor and argued that the only way he could save open space in his township was to increase lot size.
3. Promotion of a consumer society. I had a realtor in my class one time for junior achievement (not by choice)
and she rewarded the kids in a game where they had to recognize brand names and slogans from chain restaurants. Talk about indoctrination in schools!
4. The mobility of the current population. Highways continue to promote leapfrog
Development and those people want to consume at places they know. Look at our own discussions on here about Burger King and Sheets etc. Human migration has also broken down local loyalties and interest in saving local history.
5. Online Shopping and the warehouses that follow.
6. Now Data Centers.
7. Car culture which everyone thought was dying with Millennials. Now it’s back worse than ever with its loud gas guzzling SUV’s, Pickups, and Muscle cars and its drivers crying about gas prices.