Spring Creek, Center County, 8/24/2003

[troutbert]

In 100 years Spring will return to its former Brook Trout glory for armies of euronymphers or whatever they call them then.

Spring Creek won't be a brook trout stream. I live in the watershed. What people around here discuss is whether the stream will survive as a wild trout stream with all the development and population growth that is occurring and that is sure to continue.

I've heard some people say that it definitely cannot survive as a wild trout stream. But there are still wild trout in Valley Creek and in the Spring Creek in Harrisburg, both of which have much higher levels of development than Spring Creek in Centre County.

But I think it is inevitable that Spring Creek will be degraded to some degree in 100 years. More people, more pavement, more industry, more water use, more sewage effluent will result in stream degradation. Good conservation practices can ameliorate that to some extent, but not completely.

Regarding these reports of brook trout caught in Spring Creek, I don't think of it in personal terms at all. I'm interested in the stream and its fisheries, water quality etc.

Spring Creek does not have a population of brook trout. So, any brook trout caught there must be hatchery trout.

From a biology perspective it makes no difference whether these trout were brook trout or not. Spring Creek doesn't have a brook trout population. We knew that before and we still know that.

 

[dryflyguy]

I've never caught a brook trout in spring creek.
But dont think it's that far fetched for a few to show up - especially in a section along side a hatchery.
And even for a few wild ones to work down from the headwaters during high flows, despite the blockages

I caught a stocked brookie in the lower section of the Little J this spring - first time I can recall that happening there in about 40 years of fishing.
Think it likely came in from Shavers Creek, which is an ATW

 

[Fish Sticks]

Spring Creek won't be a brook trout stream. I live in the watershed. What people around here discuss is whether the stream will survive as a wild trout stream with all the development and population growth that is occurring and that is sure to continue.

I've heard some people say that it definitely cannot survive as a wild trout stream. But there are still wild trout in Valley Creek and in the Spring Creek in Harrisburg, both of which have much higher levels of development than Spring Creek in Centre County.

But I think it is inevitable that Spring Creek will be degraded to some degree in 100 years. More people, more pavement, more industry, more water use, more sewage effluent will result in stream degradation. Good conservation practices can ameliorate that to some extent, but not completely.

Regarding these reports of brook trout caught in Spring Creek, I don't think of it in personal terms at all. I'm interested in the stream and its fisheries, water quality etc.

Spring Creek does not have a population of brook trout. So, any brook trout caught there must be hatchery trout.

From a biology perspective it makes no difference whether these trout were brook trout or not. Spring Creek doesn't have a brook trout population. We knew that before and we still know that.

I think in 100 years we will be having the same discussion about all the “great limes-toners of the past” penns has development popping up in the sinking creek drainage and upstream of springmills is near state college where people will want houses as state college has gotten expensive. Little J has sheetz or rutters popping up on a class A trib I think. Big fishing creek has nicholas meats in review right now at SRBC for 750,000 gallons daily withdraw. No large stream is safe from “progress” unless its almost entirely made up of SGL, DCNR or SF/NF land. Good thing PFBC’s buying us these awesome rubber trout to wrestle over on crowded opening day combat conditions while DCNR buying acres of land instead.

 

[Zipper]

I think in 100 years we will be having the same discussion about all the “great limes-toners of the past” penns has development popping up in the sinking creek drainage and upstream of springmills is near state college where people will want houses as state college has gotten expensive. Little J has sheetz or rutters popping up on a class A trib I think. Big fishing creek has nicholas meats in review right now at SRBC for 750,000 gallons daily withdraw. No large stream is safe from “progress” unless its almost entirely made up of SGL, DCNR or SF/NF land. Good thing PFBC’s buying us these awesome rubber trout to wrestle over on crowded opening day combat conditions while DCNR buying acres of land instead.

We won't be having those discussions in 100 years.

 

[Fish Sticks]

We won't be having those discussions in 100 years

Tell that to the Cumberland valley(trindle, cedar, hoagestown run.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Game commission put their money into SGL’s not cloning deer. PFBC had a breakdown in assessment of fundamental requirements for fishing a stream not even getting into conservation.

Access +
land/habitat to support a functioning stream/fishery + FISH( they really only latched onto this one and ran with it)

 

[poopdeck]

This is why I just call them trout. Kind of like sunnies. Who cares if they were brook, brown, rainbows, bluegills, redbreast, etc…. they are all just little fish, mostly, that are fun to catch, regardless of a name. I also don't take pictures of fish so good for you on catching brook trout where most don’t.

 

[Fish Sticks]

This is why I just call them trout. Kind of like sunnies. Who cares if they were brook, brown, rainbows, bluegills, redbreast, etc…. they are all just little fish, mostly, that are fun to catch, regardless of a name. I also don't take pictures of fish so good for you on catching brook trout where most don’t.

From fishing perspective this is an understandable and very logical perspective. I was simply interested in species because on off chance there was a wild native brook trout in spring creek it would have interesting conservation implications, a different arena entirely.

 

[caddisflyer]

I was kidding around about Spring in 100 yrs but I do know there are quite a few places in PA that now have trout that did not have any or very low populations only a few years ago. And generally speaking development is bad for creeks but in some cases development has brought types of runoff and wastewater management that has improved a waterway for trout.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I was kidding around about Spring in 100 yrs but I do know there are quite a few places in PA that now have trout that did not have any or very low populations only a few years ago. And generally speaking development is bad for creeks but in some cases development has brought types of runoff and wastewater management that has improved a waterway for trout.

Yea There are certainly exceptions and you can restore what has not yet been developed yet for sure but I would not be surprised if as population centers expand some of these benefits get negated speaking overall/net effect. We have very little contiguous public land when it comes to watershed scale and our small spring creeks thet can be protected at stream corridor level cannot be protected effectively at infiltration basin scale as of yet. The smartest thing to do in PA would be to put a building moratorium/tax advantaged conservation incentivization on some high ecological value watershed catchment areas that would benefit economically from enhancement as well(AI might be helpful here). but impossible in current legislative climate and to be honest people say they want healthy intact ecosystems in general but won’t take the two seconds to e-mail their legislators who might only get 20-30 communications sent to them a month. 50 people in one district asking that a small area or sub’s watershed be spared from development and preserved for conservation/public recreation would be the political equivalent of a tsunami. If that many people stated a watershed had a value and asked their legislator to work with DCNR, PFBC, or someone else to preserve it my gut is it would have a lot better chance of getting something done than one would think. The model right now is get landowner to agree to restoration and access and there are some great examples but access or ownership of the parcel is very fickle/fragile and can change with just one 1/64rth oz plastic worm container dropped on the ground.

Its as simple as most lay people don’t care enough to lift a finger.

 

[rrt]

I, too, am pessimistic about the survival of Spring Creek and all of PA's spring creeks over the next 100 years. As the population continues to explode, more stress will be placed on these -- and other -- watersheds. Rural areas suffer from the degradation of ag. runoff, esp. liquid manure and farm chemicals. Towns and cities continue to expand. I do not live in State College, but over the years on my visits I have noticed the sprawl of development around what I think was once a nice mid-size community. I have heard others refer to the development of what they call the "horror of State College." Perhaps they are right.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

High rises going up all over downtown state college. Look at the 99 exit onto Benner pike by fisherman's paradise. Crazy how it has changed in 5 years even with the potential of a million. Sq ft warehouse on horizon. More development coming for shiloh rd

 

[Fish Sticks]

I, too, am pessimistic about the survival of Spring Creek and all of PA's spring creeks over the next 100 years. As the population continues to explode, more stress will be placed on these -- and other -- watersheds. Rural areas suffer from the degradation of ag. runoff, esp. liquid manure and farm chemicals. Towns and cities continue to expand. I do not live in State College, but over the years on my visits I have noticed the sprawl of development around what I think was once a nice mid-size community. I have heard others refer to the development of what they call the "horror of State College." Perhaps they are right.

Agreed, everyone has a Lobby(builders do BIG TIME, they are relatively few but can fill a campaign war chest. Right now the movement to protect coldwater ecosystems has a few non profs but whats missing since we don’t have millions of dollars is just everyday citizens who could put this issue on the ballot and challenge the well financed special interests.

 

[TimMurphy]

High rises going up all over downtown state college. Look at the 99 exit onto Benner pike by fisherman's paradise. Crazy how it has changed in 5 years even with the potential of a million. Sq ft warehouse on horizon. More development coming for shiloh rd

Dear lycofisher,

Last Fall when I fished Spring below the "new" 25-year-old bridge that replaced the old open grate bridge halfway between the Paradise and Rte 550 I looked up and saw that abomination of a hotel high on the ridge.

Honestly, I nearly cried.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

 

[Zipper]

Tell that to the Cumberland valley(trindle, cedar, hoagestown run.

Emphasis on we. Not sure if I'll be around in 100 years. 🙂

 

[redietz]

I’d be much more willing to believe a catch of one wild Brookie, than four, in one day nonetheless, on Spring.

I actually find that makes it more likely that they are in fact brookies. It seems that whenever I catch a species of trout that's unusual for a stream, I generally catch more than one on the same day. I might go a year or longer between catching brook trout on Gunpowder Falls, for example, but the last time I did (October 2019) I caught three of them. Similarly, when they stock fingerling rainbows in the same stream, I've caught as many as ten in one day, and none for the next year (I should add that I fish there at least once a week, and usually more often.)

I would expect that if there was hatchery escape, you would catch a bunch of them in the first week or two, and then few after that.

 

[Mike]

I was kidding around about Spring in 100 yrs but I do know there are quite a few places in PA that now have trout that did not have any or very low populations only a few years ago. And generally speaking development is bad for creeks but in some cases development has brought types of runoff and wastewater management that has improved a waterway for trout.

Such as Cacoosing Ck, Berks Co in the stretch from about Rt 422 to within 1.5 mi or so of the headwaters.

As for Spring Ck, Centre Co, I predict that what will eventually diminish the fishery, relegating it to even smaller trout in more areas, will be habitat destruction from stormwater runoff.

 

[Jemoca75!]

I randomly catch wild bows at a certain area on spring creek way upstream of any hatchery, caught these 2 today, the pic of the bigger fish doesn't do it justice it was very vibrant

 

[Fish Sticks]

Milder winters can favor rainbow trout reproduction. Some rainbows eggs can become inviable when stream temps get well below 40 I believe.

 

[moodyblues]

I randomly catch wild bows at a certain area on spring creek way upstream of any hatchery, caught these 2 today, the pic of the bigger fish doesn't do it justice it was very vibrant

Everybody knows those are brown trout.............😉