Letort and the uMngeni

Who made the claim there was new information? Who made the claim they are unique in behavior?
What's new is the catch and release signs in the Barracks and catch and release regulations from there to the Chesapeake bay in protection of those trout. That's new....
It was a comment of mine because you asked my opinion, I gave it.
I don't care if you dislike it.
It's been weeks and you want to bring this all back up again. Ok then.

I didn't realize this blog put those signs there. Good to know 🙄

The only reason these fish need so much protection now is because you guys keep selling them out to further the agenda.

But not yours right?
Right?

I mean is sweet deal isn't it. Sellout other watersheds and protect your own?

The very comment that I made and you now quoted made you have an aneurysm. If I quote it too, will I get PM's again?
Will you be upset with yourself?

😂
Living in a dream land, come back to Earth.
 
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It was a comment of mine.
You asked my opinion, I gave it.
I don't care if you dislike it.

I didn't realize this blog put those signs there. Good to know 🙄
They aren't there because of you or anything you have done that's for sure.. Have you ever protected anything other than yourself and your own insecurity? I"m not the one who laughed at you in the gym locker room or picked you last for kickball so come off your horse little guy and get real.. You know damn well where those signs came from and how the protection came. You just don't like it. Get real little man.
 
Here we go again, with the "conservation virtue signaling"😂 with added fantasies of delusion against self perceived enemies 🤭

Yeah bro , your awesome. Was that enough stroking?
 
Your putting words in my mouth, and twisting them to something I didn't say.

You asked what I thought of the blog or article.
There is no new information here.

Many watersheds have moving browns.
Are you saying the Letort fish are more special than Sherman's, Yellow Breeches, how about the ones in Lower Lancaster County ? Maybe they are more unique than the ones in Pine Creek? How about in the Swatara? How about the movers in ______? You can fill in the blank.

It is happening all over the state, country and overseas.

It isn't new information, nor are these particular fish unique in the behavior.
😮
 
Here we go again, with the "conservation virtue signaling"😂 with added fantasies of delusion against self perceived enemies 🤭

Yeah bro , your awesome. Was that enough stroking?
The delusion and fantasy is yours man. You wanna make it about me. I'm in this because it isn't over and everyone matters. You too. By taking this platform you matter. You have the power to influence others on here. Maybe you don't take it serious, but I do. I'm still trying to change things. I don't know what your skin in the game is. It is important to see that these trout by their behavior are demonstrating genetic diversity. They have never been given value or managed directly in the history of the state. These are the fish that if studied will give the best information on the impacts of stocking over our wild trout. Important information if we are to ever make that change. You know this too.
Your comments are not dismissing me, my theories or what I am about they are dismissing the trout.
 
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The delusion and fantasy is yours man. You wanna make it about me. I'm in this because it isn't over and everyone matters. You too. By taking this platform you matter. You have the power to influence others on here. Maybe you don't take it serious, but I do. I'm still trying to change things. I don't know what your skin the game is. It is important to see that these trout by their behavior are demonstrating genetic diversity. They have never been given value or managed directly in the history of the state. These are the fish that if studied will give the best information on the impacts of stocking over our wild trout. Important information if we are to ever make that change.
Your comments are not dismissing me, my theories or what I am about they are dismissing the trout.

You just made it about you😂
I mean how else did those signs get there ?


Sorry my guy, none of the things in your neat tangent ever happened to me. It's the only thing a person with an inflatable ego can think because how could anyone possibly not agree with them! Especially when they are bruised and must revisit old conversations after they are past. I bet your EX girlfriends from school get a stern talking to in your mind.

Yes these fish must be studied because never has brown trout movement been studied or documented 😂

Eric, it's been weeks. Go hunting, go outside or do something.

Not everyone has to agree with you.
 
You just made it about you😂
I mean how else did those signs get there ?


Sorry my guy, none of the things in your neat tangent ever happened to me. It's the only thing a person with an inflatable ego can think because how could anyone possibly not agree with them! Especially when they are bruised and must revisit old conversations after they are past. I bet your EX girlfriends from school get a stern talking to in your mind.

Yes these fish must be studied because never has brown trout movement been studied or documented 😂

Eric, it's been weeks. Go hunting, go outside or do something.

Not everyone has to agree with you.
Dude I got nothing at all to hide behind. I want to put you on my shoulders and tell everyone here is the reason we cannot make change happen in Pennsylvania. It's clear what you are protecting and it isn't fish. What your doing is character assassination. I did get those signs hung and I did spearhead a moment that got over 80k miles of water protected for almost half the year. Idid do that. Should I not be proud of that? Am I not entitled to be proud of that achievement?
Do you cate about wild trout? Why do you think I coined the hashtag #itsaboutthefish. It is in recognition of the problem of competition between anglers. It's clear you are protecting your own ego here. Why are you here?
This was a post of a blog written from South Africa where a man inspired by a blog that I wrote on the Brown trout of letort and the value of movement. It was during a time when I was fighting people like you to prove they were worthy of protection and they existed. It was a fight.
That fight made me who I am. I can't back down because of guys like you. I know what you are about. It is nothing short of character assassination. Because for you its about you. Ever here the word projection. You think I am like you. I am not. Change your lens pal. It's about the fish.. I'm fighting for the fish. If it was about me there is no way in hell I would be on here dealing with the likes of you or anywhere else for that matter.
 
In case you need some more straws, but I suggest the later, not that you need the help.
 

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I enjoyed reading it, but I see nothing ground breaking. Potamodromous brown trout are well documented with many studies on them world wide. The happenings between the Letort and the Connie are not even overly unique statewide, much less nationally and very much less abroad.

Trout move, they migrate around, they follow food, they follow temperature, they follow spawning needs, they swim.

If stocked tagged Hogestown Run Rainbows are caught in the Gulf of Mexico, and that has happened, then of course wild brown trout also move around.

Most, if not ALL species of trout migrate. Many can go to sea also.
In reality this is the opinion you didn't like.
You asked and I said this.

Your new tantrums, while amusing, are not even close to the reality of what is happening.

Get meds, see a doctor, have sex or smoke a joint, do something cause you are unhinged.

Not everyone has to agree with your opinions Eric.
It's childlike to think otherwise.
 
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In reality this is the opinion you didn't like.
You asked and I said this.

You new tantrums while amusing are not even close to the reality of what is happening.

Get meds, see a doctor, have sex or smoke a joint, do something cause you are unhinged.

Not everyone has to agree with your opinions Eric.
It's childlike to think otherwise.
What do you disagree with? In your opinion/comment you didn't disagree with me, what I am about, my opinions, my theories, you only dismissed the trout as being common.
Yeah, I have a problem with that.
I am passionate about protecting wild trout. I don't care whether you agree or disagree. I explained the issue. You are dismissing trout of value. Trout that formerly were not recognized of value.
What don't you agree with? What? Can you explain without a personal attack.
 
What do you disagree with? In your opinion/comment you didn't disagree with me, what I am about, my opinions, my theories, you only dismissed the trout as being common.
Yeah, I have a problem with that.
I am passionate about protecting wild trout. I don't care whether you agree or disagree. I explained the issue. You are dismissing trout of value. Trout that formerly were not recognized of value.
What don't you agree with? What? Can you explain without a personal attack.
Oddly enough, I don't.
I consider them all of value to varying degrees.
I don't hold them in the same order as you.


You have done nothing but personal attack in this entire discussion.

Go back and read it in order
 
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What I disagree with is your assessment of Loch Leven vs Black Hills Trout vs Any other trout for that matter.

In reality, genetically they are the same.

Yes, however, SNP's have recently been discovered that could certainly help determine "movers" in a system.
All controlled by protein deficiency that trigger the fish to move.

So environmental factors and food factors are major when it comes to determining if a fish will move.


Pennsylvania is now a hodge podge of genetics. Loch leven and black forest strain. Migrating fish are all over the state.


Brook trout also migrate in and out of systems.


It's more common than not for any given larger watershed with trout in it's tributaries.
All over the world. It's a common for trout to do so. It's well documented across many different species of trout also.

Pennsylvania's Brown Trout genetics are diverse and wide spread. It's more likely most every system has brown trout that will travel. It's also likely every population has a percentage of them triggered by Pennsylvania's extreme climate conditions on both ends of the spectrum to travel. There isn't any pure Loch Leven strain. That is highly unlikely.

As Pennsylvania continues to see severe climate events due to climate change, it is likely you will see more trout move to find forage and proper conditions.

Even stocked fish move for thermal refuge and forage. Most fish do. Bass will even do the same.

There isn't some magical thing going on, or some kind of special event, special strain, special genetics and you aren't Lewis and Clark blazing new trails. it's what fish do.
 
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The two strains of brown trout introduced into Pennsylvania is not my assessment for you to disagree with. Your point is that a brown trout is a brown trout is a brown trout.

The quote below is from a previous comment of mine. Does it mean anything to you?

"Depending on the time of introduction and the hatchery source, the brown trout stocked around Pennsylvania represented a range of genetic diversity. Natural selection operating in new environments for the past 50 to 130 years, fine tuning adaptations to these new environments, has likely produced an array of differentiation so that hardly any two populations of Pennsylvania brown trout are exactly alike. It is possible that some of the original shipments from von Behr or from Loch Leven were stocked into waters that were never stocked again and the original "pure" form still exists."

Where were you when the fight was to prove they existed? Pardon me for being amazed by the sudden change from migratory fish don't exist to they are just common. They had never been managed for or protected in the past until now. Where were you?
If I am hearing you right there is nothing special to be garnered by movement. It's what fish do.
 
The two strains of brown trout introduced into Pennsylvania is not my assessment for you to disagree with. Your point is that a brown trout is a brown trout is a brown trout.

The quote below is from a previous comment of mine. Does it mean anything to you?

"Depending on the time of introduction and the hatchery source, the brown trout stocked around Pennsylvania represented a range of genetic diversity. Natural selection operating in new environments for the past 50 to 130 years, fine tuning adaptations to these new environments, has likely produced an array of differentiation so that hardly any two populations of Pennsylvania brown trout are exactly alike. It is possible that some of the original shipments from von Behr or from Loch Leven were stocked into waters that were never stocked again and the original "pure" form still exists."

Where were you when the fight was to prove they existed? Pardon me for being amazed by the sudden change from migratory fish don't exist to they are just common. They had never been managed for or protected in the past until now. Where were you?
If I am hearing you right there is nothing special to be garnered by movement. It's what fish do.
I never claimed they didn't exist, I claim they aren't unique.

Your just looking to fight at this point and it's sad.

Yes, nothing special is going to come out of this "movement". Fish will still be stocked, brook trout will continue to be forgotten and the status quo will continue.
 
The two strains of brown trout introduced into Pennsylvania is not my assessment for you to disagree with. Your point is that a brown trout is a brown trout is a brown trout.

The quote below is from a previous comment of mine. Does it mean anything to you?

"Depending on the time of introduction and the hatchery source, the brown trout stocked around Pennsylvania represented a range of genetic diversity. Natural selection operating in new environments for the past 50 to 130 years, fine tuning adaptations to these new environments, has likely produced an array of differentiation so that hardly any two populations of Pennsylvania brown trout are exactly alike. It is possible that some of the original shipments from von Behr or from Loch Leven were stocked into waters that were never stocked again and the original "pure" form still exists."

Where were you when the fight was to prove they existed? Pardon me for being amazed by the sudden change from migratory fish don't exist to they are just common. They had never been managed for or protected in the past until now. Where were you?
If I am hearing you right there is nothing special to be garnered by movement. It's what fish do.
As far as your quote.
Argue with Charlie.

He believed the Loch Leven and German strain mixed in the Letort.

Why would you believe they don't breed together?
You could always provide DNA test results and sway me .

What do you think they will show?

You do know, don't you?
 
"

"The LeTort has its own breed of brown trout, a cross between German-origin browns stocked early in the century and prized Lock Leven browns from Scotland that Fox purloined after they were stocked in nearby streams. The resulting strain was scrappy and particularly wary, responding only to the deftest angler's approach.

Fox wants future generations of LeTort trout to evolve from the few that are left, to retain this special hybrid strain and keep the challenging nature of the stream intact.

"I've never seen anything like it," said Fox of the difficulty of fishing the LeTort, "and everyone who comes here says the same thing." He cited a combination of factors -- the slow flow, making proper presentation of flies critical; the soft banks, which required anglers to creep not only slowly but softly; the abundant food sources, which made the trout more selective; and the thick grass beds, which forced fishermen to fish deep in blind holes when the trout fed on bugs in the undergrowth."
 
I never claimed they didn't exist, I claim they aren't unique.

Your just looking to fight at this point and it's sad.

Yes, nothing special is going to come out of this "movement". Fish will still be stocked, brook trout will continue to be forgotten and the status quo will continue.
When did I make any claim they were unique. I used the word movement in regard to fish movement not the grassroots movement. " If I am hearing you right there is nothing special to be garnered by movement. It's what fish do." Am I hearing you right?
 
As far as your quote.
Argue with Charlie.

He believed the Loch Leven and German strain mixed in the Letort.

Why would you believe they don't breed together?
You could always provide DNA test results and sway me .

What do you think they will show?

You do know, don't you?
Your not answering any questions that I have of you. You want me to argue an opinion.
Brown trout can maintain genetic separation for thousands of years within the same ecosystem.
Point is we don't know. We should be doing genetic sampling on Brown Trout. We might learn something from it. I would not be surprised to find trout that strongly resemble the original strains introduced when compared to analysis on file. I think it might be important information.

You volunteered this prophecy:
"Yes, nothing special is going to come out of this "movement". Fish will still be stocked, brook trout will continue to be forgotten and the status quo will continue."
I'm not okay with that status quo. It isn't in me to accept that there isn't anything I can do.
You know why I'm here and in this with you. Why are you here?
You and this discussion represent what is wrong.
In all your wisdom as the expert there isn't any possibility that another angler may have experienced things beyond your comprehension and has come to different conclusions worthy of your consideration and respect.
 
Your not answering any questions that I have of you. You want me to argue an opinion.
Brown trout can maintain genetic separation for thousands of years within the same ecosystem.
Point is we don't know. We should be doing genetic sampling on Brown Trout. We might learn something from it. I would not be surprised to find trout that strongly resemble the original strains introduced when compared to analysis on file. I think it might be important information.

You volunteered this prophecy:
"Yes, nothing special is going to come out of this "movement". Fish will still be stocked, brook trout will continue to be forgotten and the status quo will continue."
I'm not okay with that status quo. It isn't in me to accept that there isn't anything I can do.
You know why I'm here and in this with you. Why are you here?
You and this discussion represent what is wrong.
In all your wisdom as the expert there isn't any possibility that another angler may have experienced things beyond your comprehension and has come to different conclusions worthy of your consideration and respect.
Maybe because I answered your initial question, then asked you some, which you have ignored just like in all our interactions. Again you are doing what I warned you not to do, blame the other party for what you are doing. It's borish.

If you don't want a quid pro quo, then we have nothing more to discuss. You are making it a one way conversation because you are easily bruised.

No Eric, see again you are doing it. I never claimed to have wisdom, I never even claimed to be an expert, but i have given consideration to all your rhetoric and theories and come to different conclusion, yet you just file them away as being beyond my comprehension. Clearly you are all wise and the true expert.

Let me know how those genetic studies work out, especially the Genetic analysis of strains on file from 1800's Pennsylvania.
Can't wait!
 
I was once humiliated (versus humiliated once 😉) on the Delayed Harvest Artificials Only section of the Wiconisco by a kid spin fishing...

I had already been skunked fly fishing so I walked back to my car to get my ever present ultralight spinning rod & lures. I then proceeded to get skunked with in-line spinners and jigs on the ultralight outfit when I saw this kid catching and releasing trout, one after one.

I couldn't stand it any more so I broke down and asked him what he was using. It was a very small Rapala called a Rap-X. I only had one very small plug in my box that I promptly tied on and I caught a trout on my first cast... 🙂

Needless to say I ordered some Rap-X's when I got home and they are now part of my ultralight/BFS kit.

That being said last year I got into the Bait or Bass Finesse System (BFS) which is using specially designed or specially tuned bait casting gear to cast lures as light as one gram. Many of the tiny lures I use are only available in Japan or through US based dealers who import BFS tackle.

Just about everyone who fishes this way and a lot of others who don't, did what I also did last year and replaces the treble hooks on their lures with single hooks made for the purpose. In most cases the result on hard baits is two single hooks but in many cases with spoons, the tiniest plugs (and I mean TINY) and in-line spinners, it is one single hook...

...just like most flies.

So we're not all fishing with grappling hooks and tearing up the mouths of trout like some folks want to think and I DON'T mean you jifigz. 🙂
I think it’s admirable that you changed out the hooks to lessen the impact on the trout.

With that said, I recall some information on this site awhile ago that was very surprising where it was discussed that more trout are mortally wounded by single hooks than double or treble hooks. Your heart is in the right place but based on certain studies the hooks used on lures may not factor into mortality as much as other factors.

I’m not suggesting you change your approach since the statement below doesn’t specifically address stick baits. Food for thought.

=================
Posted by Mike PFBC. Circa June 2020

Treble vs single hooks have been tested scientifically and the results published in the scientific literature. Angler lore and emotions aside, here are the results.

Single hooks on spinners cause significantly greater delayed mortality due to the deep hooking in vital areas of the mouth and esophagus. The vital areas, such as the tongue, bleed excessively, resulting in delayed mortality.

One study countered this with small, wild brook trout. I observed that the problem in that case was that the treble hooks were TOO SMALL, most likely resulting in all three hooks being engulfed by the brook trout. This occurs in the field and is easily corrected by anglers by using slightly larger hooks, which usually prevents all three hooks from being taken by the fish. Another way to correct the problem in the field if anglers do not have lures with larger treble hooks or spare hooks is to break one of the hooks off of the treble combination. There is a too small treble hook that is placed on some lures which allows all three points to barely fit into the mouth of the wild brookies of a common sublegal size. The three points hold the mouth shut when an angler tries to extract the hook and provide a real challenge to the angler, increasing holding time and jaw damage.

As for the scientific studies evaluating barbed vs barbless hooks and delayed trout mortality, the barbless hooks cause one percent less delayed mortality. This insignificant difference is so small that anglers would not be able to detect it in fish populations. Additionally, any angler worrying about this amount of additional delayed mortality should not be lifting fish from the water to unhook the fish, be using very light tippets during trico time, or be taking photos of fish held out of the water in my opinion.
 
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