Lancaster County Brook Trout

Clearly, some people just make unfounded assumptions or don't bother to read. I follow the rules and have confirmed them with local WCOs. It's not that complicated. The majority of wild trout streams in PA are NOT class A or fall under one of the other special regs categories. I don't need a trout stamp to FISH there, but I do need one to HARVEST there.

But if it would get you folks off this endless circle jerk, I promise to buy an effing trout stamp for the rest of my life. Seriously, just read the regs. Holy crap!
 
Keeping legal size browns would probably be a step in the right direction.
In case the brook trout “9 inch size limit or bust” crowd hadn’t thought beyond its automatically positive reaction, the proposal would also place a 9 inch limit on brown trout, meaning that an angler intent on keeping brown trout in order to assist brook trout would have to wait another brown trout growing season in Pa freestoners in order to do so. Given the different growth rates and maturation schedules for the two species, conceivably speaking, young, vibrant, brown trout would be competing with older, fading (looking natural death in the eye), mature brook trout.

I’ll add two more things that now tie into some of the comments. First, the 2004 Pa wild trout use and harvest study that I’ve cited frequently has almost exclusively been discussed here in the past with respect to brook trout. At this point, however, I think it’s worthwhile noting that no harvest of brown trout was documented as occurring in the 6 m or less avg width streams, your typical brook trout streams. I would not be encouraged, therefore, that many anglers would participate in voluntary harvest. Second, as I would have anticipated, such a program for a different Salmonid competitor (may have been ST) was implemented in an Alberta stream. It took years, but interest eventually faded among the anglers. That was for only one water. Imagine trying to keep interest going across an entire state of Pa with its documented low statewide wild trout angling pressure.
 
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In case the brook trout “9 inch size limit or bust” crowd hadn’t thought beyond its automatically positive reaction, the proposal would also place a 9 inch limit on brown trout.
I'm assuming you mean minimum rather than limit. I don't know anyone in the 9" or bust crowd. But I know lots of folks in the ANY protective regs for brook trout is better than doing nothing crowd. All the more reason to go selective harvest. The ones I harvest would meet the proposed 9" minimum. I'm not bothering with the dink browns in brookie streams.
 
2 things: simplify the language and make it clear what the purpose is/should be: protect the state
Fish.
 
In case the brook trout “9 inch size limit or bust” crowd hadn’t thought beyond its automatically positive reaction, the proposal would also place a 9 inch limit on brown trout.
When I consider your thought, this comes to mind:

"Samples of age‐groups O and I fish from wild populations of brown trout (Salmo trutta Linnaeus) indicated a similarity in the periodicity of growth in three streams in Pennsylvania. Growth in length of trout of both age groups followed a similar pattern in the three streams, with the most rapid growth occurring in the spring and very little growth occurring in the winter months. Estimates of the mean total length at the end of two complete growing seasons were 7.0, 7.8, and 8.5 inches, respectively, for the three streams."

-Growth of Brown Trout in Selected Pennsylvania Streams
George B. Beyerle ,
Edwin L. Cooper Transactions of the American Fisheries Society, Volume 89, Issue 3, July 1960, Pages 255–


Knowing this, less harvest if there be any significant legal harvest taking place in mixed populations, will be restricted in the second growing season for brown trout. Thus, possibly being a determent to brook trout.
 
In case the brook trout “9 inch size limit or bust” crowd hadn’t thought beyond its automatically positive reaction, the proposal would also place a 9 inch limit on brown trout, meaning that an angler intent on keeping brown trout in order to assist brook trout would have to wait another growing season in Pa freestoners in order to do so.
So then what is the purpose of the rule? State the rule and the goal CLEARLY.
 
Truth is the answer to help brook trout in some select streams in this state is too much for the average angler on this board to accept.
Tbh I think it needs to be about more than just the angler. Should anyone be ok with eliminating our native char and state fish? Sadly that answer today appears to be yes.
 
Truth is the answer to help brook trout in some select streams in this state is too much for the average angler on this board to accept.
Dear FisherOfMen,

I haven't kept any trout in well over 20 years. I'd wager that most of the people who post here rarely, if ever, do.

The average angler thinks trout come in white trucks.

That's where the effort needs to be focused, on them.

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂
 
When I consider your thought, this comes to mind:

"Samples of age‐groups O and I fish from wild populations of brown trout (Salmo trutta Linnaeus) indicated a similarity in the periodicity of growth in three streams in Pennsylvania. Growth in length of trout of both age groups followed a similar pattern in the three streams, with the most rapid growth occurring in the spring and very little growth occurring in the winter months. Estimates of the mean total length at the end of two complete growing seasons were 7.0, 7.8, and 8.5 inches, respectively, for the three streams."

-Growth of Brown Trout in Selected Pennsylvania Streams
George B. Beyerle ,
Edwin L. Cooper Transactions of the American Fisheries Society, Volume 89, Issue 3, July 1960, Pages 255–


Knowing this, less harvest if there be any significant legal harvest taking place in mixed populations, will be restricted in the second growing season for brown trout. Thus, possibly being a determent to brook trout.
Exactly what I was driving at, although I was not thinking of that reference, but instead just going from experience. Thanks for reference though…much appreciated. As an aside, Edwin Cooper, Ph.D., whom you cited, was my undergrad advisor.

The maturation of wild brown trout males at age 2 conceivably allows them to compete with similar size older and smaller, younger male brook trout for spawning opportunities with female brook trout. (Side note: Goes both ways…ST male x BT female, BT male X ST female). I have seen it postulated that this act of cross-breeding is one of the mechanisms by which BT may out-compete ST at the population level.
 
To the "it might not work, so let's do nothing" crowd, I see a benefit that you may be overlooking. I see a mindset shift at the PFBC, the very agency that not only allowed, but contributed to the demise of brook trout in Lanco and beyond. That mindset shift is long overdue. I don't care if it's misguided, won't last, or unlikely to work. If the proposed reg flops, then find a better way. Or why not suggest a more effective solution now? What's the downside? Other than some here having to find a new topic of esoterica to endlessly debate, while PA continues to lose more brookies.
 
I find this fascinating that Lancaster County has native brook trout. Every trip there for me over the years was to the Amish Country farmlands. Never heard of the Furnace Hills area until I began exploring this website. I sure hope they can hold on.
Before settlement, Lancaster county probably had more brook trout than any county in the state. It has lots of smaller spring creeks but most of them are full of cow shite now and no longer viable.
 
Before settlement, Lancaster county probably had more brook trout than any county in the state. It has lots of smaller spring creeks but most of them are full of cow shite now and no longer viable.
I guess if your claiming the Susky for yourself I guess, maybe but I think there are several counties that could have produced more brookies, pre-settlement.
 
The average angler thinks trout come in white trucks.

PFBC likes it that way...people line up *** to elbows for that white truck to come drop off the fish.

Most of us here on PAFF know better, and fish for wild fish, but the lab created garbage they throw in the waterways sells a ton of trout stamps for a couple weeks of fishing a year.



The Rodfather
Engagement Czar and Conservation Chair
Dauphin County League of Chubsmen
 
Dear FisherOfMen,

I haven't kept any trout in well over 20 years. I'd wager that most of the people who post here rarely, if ever, do.

The average angler thinks trout come in white trucks.

That's where the effort needs to be focused, on them.

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂
True, but you really didn't understand the full context of what I was saying.

There are some watersheds in the state that would and could be really good candidates for a massive brook trout revitalization project. I won't name them simply because this board frowns upon that amongst other things but ill detail what characteristics they have, why they are good candidates and what would need to be done to them to make a robust and healthy brook trout fishery.

Characteristics:
  • large scale interconnected watershed. larger stream with multiple tributaries
  • AMD impacted but recovering (less species diversity)
  • decent habitat in larger watershed and good spawning grounds in tributaries
Good Candidate:
  • large scale watershed allows for seasonal movement of fish to avoid environmental impacts, seasonal impacts, access to various food, habitats and spawning ground. Also allows for brook trout to diversify genes at spawning for more resiliency
  • larger stream is transitional, meaning it goes from cold water to warm water at a point along its length. Transitional waters increase species diversity as in the watershed as a whole as both warm and cold-water forage fish. As the brook trout move along its length seasonally, they will find higher amounts of and a diversity of foods.
  • AMD impacted but recovering means the watershed has less predator fish which includes invasive species that would impact brook trout by either feeding on them or out competing them.
  • larger watershed includes good habitat in winter/spring with deeper water/cover in transitional warm water stretches and good spawning habitat in tributaries. Brook trout can move about the watershed seasonally to find needs.
What would need to be done:
  • Removal of larger watershed from stocking program by both state and/or private entities. No more permits to stock these watersheds regardless of sportsman's club desires, PFBC desires to create opportunities, access or whatever other desire anyone might have.
  • Wide scale removal of any brown trout or any other invasive species in the watershed, mainstem and tributaries, if it be by electroshocking or some other means. Not once, not twice, not three times but multiple times in multiple years.
  • No season, no limit on any invasive fish species in watershed.
  • Reintroduction of any native fish or minnow species.
  • C&R regulations on all brook trout, regardless of size
  • Strict regulation enforcement with high penalties for regulation violations which include introduction of other fish species by private entities.
  • No fishing for 5 years or more until project stabilizes
  • Any issues in watershed addressed if it be environmental impact, habitat degraded or some other limiting factor
  • Finally, multiple fish barriers in lower end to keep any other invasive species out of watershed.

Now please keep my comment in context. I'm not saying we should do this, though I think a few watersheds in the state would be prime candidates for this type of project. It would be very expensive, time consuming, hard to regulate, along with a plethora of other issues. What I'm saying is, in my experience in locating these watersheds that produce bigger brook trout specimens, there are some viable candidates for this type of project.

Yes, the white truck chasers will kick and scream. Yes, the state will hate it. Yes, you have to change their mentality but that's not what I was addressing in my comment that you quoted and responded to. Rather, how are we ever to change their mentality, when the conservation minded, trout loving extremist that inhabit this board would kick and scream themselves? Just the thought of one of my points is enough to set this board on fire, much more so because there are many, each would light this place up. However, they need to be done to fully restore a watershed back to being a true stronghold like it was in the past.

I think if this was to ever happen, which it won't, we ALL need focused on. It's easy to point fingers at stocking over wild brook trout, but even if stopped today, that ship has fully sailed yesterday and more would need done tomorrow for all watersheds.
 
If the state really wanted to protect and enhance our brookies, I think they'd start with two clear regulations that can't be misinterpreted. 1) ZERO stocking of brookies across the state. 2) C&R on brookies statewide.

It's simple, and clearly shows support for the brookies.
 
If the state really wanted to protect and enhance our brookies, I think they'd start with two clear regulations that can't be misinterpreted. 1) ZERO stocking of brookies across the state. 2) C&R on brookies statewide.

It's simple, and clearly shows support for the brookies.
That implies the state doesn't want to protect or enhance brook trout populations. On that we agree.
 
The Commissioners make the decisions, not the biologists/fisheries managers.

This has been explained on here many times, but people still continue to discuss these topics AS IF the biologists/fisheries managers have decision making power. They don't. Any substantial decision is made by vote of the Commissioners, who mostly have no fisheries education or experience. And the Commissioners are mostly strongly influenced by the sportsmens clubs that have coop hatcheries.
 
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