Central PA Troubles Tully was 65 degrees at 3pm

[jifigz]

Dear jifigz,

He was also talking about habitat improvements/modifications as well. What I got from that was the possibility that with better habitat stream borne fish would return to the improved area over time on their own.

I didn't see it so much as adding fish to the stream, but rather making the effort to restore the stream to it's previous state circa Marinaro and Fox vintage. That's a daunting task, but with public and private collaboration anything is possible.

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

Tim, That's what I was implying would help the stream, not adding trout. My comment implied that if the habitat were better, the fish would be there. In that comment there is a supposition that improving habitat would increase trout numbers, not transplanting trout to the stream. In my opinion, if you transplant trout to a stream and there isn't the goods there to sustain the fish, then it isn't doing any benefits to the stream. If the good were already there, you wouldn't need to transplant fish.

The habitat will never be what it used to be back in the days of the legends.

 

[Letort]

When the Letort native population was impacted by the chemical spill at the watercress farm, the local legends strongly urged the PBFC not to stock genetically inferior fish and allow natural reproduction to build back the population, which is what occurred.

Continued stream restoration, access and perhaps expanding the heritage protection to the entire watershed would be most beneficial. Nothing can be done to reverse the urban sprawl and draw on the aquifer, but at least stabilizing and improving what exists would be a help.

A huge data center is in the works for close to the tail water section where the Letort empties into the Conodiguinet. Not sure if it will hurt the Letort, but it cannot be a benefit.

 

[JeffP]

Fixing a unique stream like the Letort certainly poses challenges. It seems like a lot of people are not happy with results of the Big Spring improvements. I'm not sure if that's mostly the brookie people or not. And if lack of water is the major problem, how does that get fixed. Can you get rid of wells and take all the water out of the Connie?

 

[troutbert]

Yep. The Letort isn’t what it once was, and pretending otherwise doesn’t help anyone. I tried raising the concerns on here 10+ years ago.

As they say, it’s more of a “pilgrimage” stream than a functional fishery. You go to see it, to remember what it represented, and to hope the wild population somehow rebuilds itself. But hope isn’t management.

What’s missing is real intentional effort.

There’s no meaningful discussion around supplemental fingerling stocking to stabilize numbers. No serious consideration of transferring wild fish from nearby systems (let’s say, lower BS) . And more importantly, very little emphasis on habitat work, sediment removal, flow restoration, and active stewardship, the same kind of practices that have sustained spring creeks in places like the Midwest and England for decades.

Instead, the Letort is often treated as something to preserve in its current state, rather than something to restore.

Does the quarry there pump water?

 

[Bamboozle]

At least the headwaters along Spring Garden Street are protected and safer than during Fox & Marinaro's stewardship thanks to Central Pennsylvania Conservancy.

I noticed the meadow flooding, especially in the first 50 yards upstream of the end of the trail coming from Vince's Meadow about 20 years ago when I was fishing there on a somewhat regular basis. Back then I attributed it to the combined crazy weather events of Hurricane Ivan in November 2004 and heavy rains we had in April 2025 because all of a sudden, the banks were underwater up to the "Little S."

If I wanted to move upstream to spots I frequented above the "Little S" without sloshing through water, I had to walk up the old millrace because all of a sudden there was no room along the bank... I assumed once things dried out over time it would go back to being RELATIVELY dry along that bank, but the closest it got was a muddy morass.

Below the "Rosebush" down through the "Barnyard" was still OK as was up close to the "S," but in the old days we walked through the millrace to avoid putting down fish by walking close to the bank, but now it was the ONLY way to move upstream.

I haven't fished the Letort in awhile, but I was checking things out last spring and it didn't look like accessibility through my old beats had changed much.

The irony is I never liked fishing "Trego's Meadow" eons ago because it was small water with a LOT of weeds & tall grass alsong the bank and required a lot of backhanded casting for a righty like me. However, when the fish kill happened in 1981, diehards like me had no choice but to fish the "right branch" from Bonnybrook up through Tregos until the fish restablished themselves downstream.

When the banks flooded 20 years ago, all of sudden I found myself back up at Bonnybrook & Trego's and in the Barnyard where at least there was some dry land...

 

[troutbert]

I noticed the meadow flooding, especially in the first 50 yards upstream of the end of the trail coming from Vince's Meadow about 20 years ago when I was fishing there on a somewhat regular basis. Back then I attributed it to the combined crazy weather events of Hurricane Ivan in November 2004 and heavy rains we had in April 2025 because all of a sudden, the banks were underwater up to the "Little S."

If I wanted to move upstream to spots I frequented above the "Little S" without sloshing through water, I had to walk up the old millrace because all of a sudden there was no room along the bank... I assumed once things dried out over time it would go back to being RELATIVELY dry along that bank, but the closest it got was a muddy morass.

When the banks flooded 20 years ago, all of sudden I found myself back up at Bonnybrook & Trego's and in the Barnyard where at least there was some dry land...

What do you (and anyone else) think caused the increased wetness in that area?

 

[TimMurphy]

What do you (and anyone else) think caused the increased wetness in that area?

Dear troutbert,

Short answer, impervious surfaces. Twenty or 30 years ago so much of the land in the drainage area of the Letort was agricultural land. Even heavy rainfall events had ample time to percolate into the aquifer. While there is still agricultural land in the basin, much of the basin especially closer to the actual stream has been replaced by "Cement, Clay and Glass" to quote the New Riders of the Purple Sage. Run-off from heavy storms occasionally floods Carlisle because it runs off so swiftly. As the streams rise the agricultural land has to wait until the flow of the stream is reduced and that keeps streamside land "punky".

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

 

[pcray1231]

Been a bit since I fished the Tully but they can control % of top vs bottom release, and the lake routonely runs out of cold water by late summer. So in order not to use up precious bottom water, they pull all from the top in the spring and its one of the 1st streams to get into the mid 60's. But it stays there for a long time, as the weather warms they just keep adding a little more bottom water to keep temps steady. Till they run out of bottom water, usually August, then the temp suddenly skyrockets and they lose the ability to control it.

 

[mtelesha]

I heard people say that in the 70s and 80s there was enough cold water to fish year round. I really would love to fish the Tricos there....

 

[Oregon_OwlII]

Not to pile on, but this was a talking point over 15 years ago, and I don't think it was even true then. The hopes it would be a tailwater fishery were just hopes. It's a put and take, stocked trout stream that has some wild fish that spawn in two coldwater tributaries. The warmer and drier it gets in SEPA over the years, the less it becomes a trout stream, let alone one of the best in the area.

That said, it sucks to see anyone's home waters go to shite....

Between 1984 and 1989, when they were just stocking fingerlings and global warming wasn't a big problem, it was a fun and productive fishery with lots of good hatches. No, it never held wild trout, but it got a lot of local anglers, including me, into some fun and technical fishing. I forget when they started stocking adult fish, but by then, I moved on to wild trout. Today's Tully is a different stream.

 

[Oregon_OwlII]

Either way he’s wrong. He must’ve been smokin something pretty good to think that about the Tully.

I think that was in like 1989 when he wrote an article in Fly Fisherman about the Tully.

 

[Oregon_OwlII]

I heard people say that in the 70s and 80s there was enough cold water to fish year round. I really would love to fish the Tricos there....

Thick clouds of tricos covered the Tully back then. Can't speak for today.

 

[LehighRegular]

Havent been on for a while and just came across this thread. Here is my 2 cents from someone that grew up fishing the Tully, since age 12. The Tully is not even close to the days in the 80s and 90s. Fingerling trout grew fast and large. Prolific hatches of caddis and tricos. Tricos would blanket the water to the point you couldn't even have a chance there were so many naturals on the water. The rainbows rivaled the Upper D rainbows for color and fight. Largest Bow I ever caught from the Tully was 22". A beast from the Cacoosing hole.

Mike did a great job of working with the ACOE to extend the coldwater from BML to the extent possible. So what has changed. In my observations over the last 40+ years is ALOT.

1) ACOE releases are less than ideal and not ecologically friendly. Meaning...lots of "yo yo" releases.
2) Water Quality in BML is abysmal. Mostly from agriculture above the lake.
3) Bug life and hatch quality has dropped significantly. There were times during the Trico hatch that clouds of tricos were above Rebers Bridge. Can't tell you the last time I've seen a trico over that bridge. I drive over it every day to work.
4) Habitat has always been an issue, but Tully TU has done a lot of good work to improve some areas. A lot more is needed
5) Predators - lots more than in the past. Blue Heron, Osprey, Bald Eagles, etc now patrol the fishery regularly.
6) Poaching and illegal fishing is more prevalent. Maybe I just see it more now than I did as a kid.

Some hope:
- Tully TU is trying to get ACOE and PFBC to the table to discuss how the water is released and try mimic more natural flow conditions below the lake. Maybe even try to enhance releases to the extent possible and reduce the occurrence of low flow conditions. I will say the current PFBC AFM is not enthused by this idea. I'm not sure why they wouldn't be on board. Mike - Any help is appreciated.
🙂
- Cacoosing creek dam removal is very promising. Lets see what the next few years brings.


I usually only fish the Tully once or twice a year now. More to just get a fix. I get too depressed to see the state it has become. The fishery is a fragment of what it use to be in the 80s and 90s. So depending on when Meck wrote that article/book, he may not have been far off.

The Berks County CD and NRCS are moving in a direction to work with farmers in the upper watershed to improve management and practices to improve water quality. See where this goes. Support Tully TU as they are trying to make some inroads and changes to the water releases that may produce some benefits.


Enjoy it for what it is right now and hope for a better future.

 

[jifigz]

This is just an observation, but....

Most seem to lament that major hatches are a thing of the past on most waters, but by and large, water quality and cleanliness is way up in most places compared to what it was in the 70's and 80's. Is the loss of great hatches a reality, or is this just rosy retrospection and a faulty view of the past?

 

[LehighRegular]

This is just an observation, but....

Most seem to lament that major hatches are a thing of the past on most waters, but by and large, water quality and cleanliness is way up in most places compared to what it was in the 70's and 80's. Is the loss of great hatches a reality, or is this just rosy retrospection and a faulty view of the past?

I have seen water quality reports from ACOE and TCWA. They are terrible. ACOE samples the lake regularly and TCWA samples above and below the reservoir. Its no wonder algal blooms are problematic in that reservoir.

 

[jifigz]

I have seen water quality reports from ACOE and TCWA. They are terrible. ACOE samples the lake regularly and TCWA samples above and below the reservoir. Its no wonder algal blooms are problematic in that reservoir.

I'm not talking specifically about the Tully. That water quality may be terrible. I am talking about as a whole. Anglers seem to think things were better "back in the day." I just don't know if I believe that. If water quality standards have improved, how have hatches not improved?

 

[bdhoover77]

I'm not talking specifically about the Tully. That water quality may be terrible. I am talking about as a whole. Anglers seem to think things were better "back in the day." I just don't know if I believe that. If water quality standards have improved, how have hatches not improved?

In the case of mayflies, pesticides certainly seem to have had an adverse effect.

 

[jifigz]

In the case of mayflies, pesticides certainly seem to have had an adverse effect.

Is pesticide use worse now than it was fifty years ago? I am going to have to do some research on this topic.

 

[bdhoover77]

Is pesticide use worse now than it was fifty years ago? I am going to have to do some research on this topic.

I think the neo-nic pesticides are more commonly used now, and from what I have read they have been particularly insidious for mayfly populations (admittedly I am far from an expert on the topic).

 

[riverwhy]

It would be interesting to know how the amount of herbicides, pesticides, and fertilizer has changed on the average acre of farmland. Also add in the roadside roundup spraying by local and state governments. Some of the farmed acres and open spaces have been developed as well. I have trouble buying that water quality has improved in most
Places