Trout Fishing's Biggest Issue

[JG63]

In NEPA in the 80s and 90s we always used to blame "NYC money" but I thought they all would have moved to Montana to set up their very own Dutton Ranch by now?

John + Co. took all the NYC poseurs to the Train Station

 

[greywolf]

I fish a lot of "meadow streams" as I like to call them, streams that flow through pastures full of grazing cattle. It's often a funny sight because for some reason, cows like me. On one particular trip with a buddy at one particular pasture in Berks, the cows followed me from one end of the meadow to the other all morning long.

My buddy later remarked, "Man those cows sure do like you." 🐄

In any case, when we walked up to the barn that morning to ask permission, the first thing the owner said was, "Make sure to close any gate behind you that's closed as you move through the field because some fishermen I've let before, didn't."

With the way these cows followed me that day, if I left a gate or two open, there would be animals in places he didn't want them which would probably have ended my visit then and forever.

There is also the oft told story which I can't verify but believe is true, that the reason the famous Skelly Meadow at Falling Springs where I fished often was posted many moons ago was because a fly fisherman decided to give Mr. Skelly a lecture on how to keep his cows out of the creek...

Possibly in a small way, it has to to with situations where "city folks" move to the country next to a farm and start complaining to the local township council that they smell manure or hear roosters crowing...

I'm not a psychologist, but maybe the city folk's frustrations grow into apathy or resentment that manifests itself into a lack of respect when they are on a farmer's property.

I grew up on a dairy farm in NE Pa. that had lots of cows and also lots of produce to visiting NYC /NJ urban folks and can confirm two of your observations.

One cows are curious creatures who love to follow people in their pasture. If you leave a gate open they will be out and loose very quickly.

There are a percentage of urban living people who tend to talk down to / act like rural farmers are below them. I heard more comments around this behavior and why hunting / fishing access was denied than any other reason, from friends and neighbors while living there.

 

[tomgamber]

Every group thinks their little niche of fishing method should be the norm everywhere.

 

[nymphingmaniac]

In NEPA in the 80s and 90s we always used to blame "NYC money" but I thought they all would have moved to Montana to set up their very own Dutton Ranch by now?

they did. They drove by my exit on rt80 getting to the Poconos in the 80s.

 

[Brown71]

There is a bunch of good reasons for posting and views on this issue in this thread. I agree with many of them.

For me, I feel the number one issue, and it can be subdivided into many of the “other” reasons mentioned, is simply entitlement.

The world as a whole, as someone else already said, seem to feel entitled to everything and anything. I know several landowners of streams, and myself and my brother own a significant piece of property that he uses for hunting . (I do not hunt) Some of the things seen and said blow your mind.

Im in the camp of I totally understand people posting their land that THEY are paying the taxes on. It’s a strange generation and time, and in my opinion it’s not one particular group. It’s some of all of them. Fly fisherman, spin fisherman, hunters, hikers and any other outdoor pursuers. There is a sense of entitlement of some people in all these groups that is simply amazing. A lot of landowners just aren’t willing to put up with the abuse or drama that goes with it.

 

[TimMurphy]

There is a bunch of good reasons for posting and views on this issue in this thread. I agree with many of them.

For me, I feel the number one issue, and it can be subdivided into many of the “other” reasons mentioned, is simply entitlement.

The world as a whole, as someone else already said, seem to feel entitled to everything and anything. I know several landowners of streams, and myself and my brother own a significant piece property for that he uses for hunting . (I do not hunt) Some of the things seen and said blow your mind.

Im in the camp of I totally understand people posting their land that THEY are paying the taxes on. It’s a strange generation and time, and in my opinion it’s not one particular group. It’s some of all of them. Fly fisherman, spin fisherman, hunters, hikers and any other outdoor pursuers. There is a sense of entitlement of some people in all these groups that is simply amazing. A lot of landowners just aren’t willing to put up with the abuse or drama that goes with it.

Dear Brown71,

I'm curious if you considered when you wrote the third paragraph above that the entitlement door swings both ways?

Have you considered the increasing instances when a person, or even a group of people either purchase a tract of land, or lease it, and then transform what was formerly land with public access and proceed to post it?

I'd never consider bad behavior by the people being excluded from land they previously had access to as acceptable by any stretch. However, by the same token I'll also never excuse out of town owners barring access simple because they pay the taxes. It's one thing if a group of rural people be they farmers or just homeowners decide to close of their properties. But it seems disingenuous to me to collectively decide to sell or lease that access for profit, which is becoming a frequent occurrence.

They should sell out to a data center; the money is so much better!

I'm just glad I'm older, it would suck to be younger in today's world.

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

 

[Brown71]

Tim Murphy, Yes I definitely I agree with that point to an extent. There is a lot of cans of worms to open there lol.

I’m just sticking to my thought that a lot of folks that have posted land that was previously not posted is due to actions and words of entitlement by users of said land. Honestly i wasn’t as much referring to properties purchased for lease then posted and leased.

But there is always many ways to look at things I get that. I don’t own any stream side property, I just know if I did I would be seriously considering it being posted if some of the behavior I see in streams I frequent went on in the stream in my property.

Fish on and enjoy!!

 

[TimMurphy]

Tim Murphy, Yes I definitely I agree with that point to an extent. There is a lot of cans of worms to open there lol.

I’m just sticking to my thought that a lot of folks that have posted land that was previously not posted is due to actions and words of entitlement by users of said land. Honestly i wasn’t as much referring to properties purchased for lease then posted and leased.

But there is always many ways to look at things I get that. I don’t own any stream side property, I just know if I did I would be seriously considering it being posted if some of the behavior I see in streams I frequent went on in the stream in my property.

Fish on and enjoy!!

Dear Brown71,

Thanks for the honest answer. I wasn't trying to start an argument and I'm glad you took it that way.

I just wanted to point out the door to entitlement swings both ways, and regular decent and honest people get hit in the arse everytime it opens. 😉

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

 

[Bamboozle]

...There are a percentage of urban living people who tend to talk down to / act like rural farmers are below them. I heard more comments around this behavior and why hunting / fishing access was denied than any other reason, from friends and neighbors while living there.

A farmer down the road is a good friend of mine. I am often AMAZED at how much he knows about EVERYTHING.

I also used to go to the PA Farm Show and the York Farm Show with two farmer buddies of mine so they could explain to me what I was looking at...

Anybody that thinks a farmer is below them doesn't have any idea what is involved...

 

[riverwhy]

A farmer down the road is a good friend of mine. I am often AMAZED at how much he knows about EVERYTHING.

I also used to go to the PA Farm Show and the York Farm Show with two farmer buddies of mine so they could explain to me what I was looking at...

Anybody that thinks a farmer is below them doesn't have any idea what is involved...

So that’s where you learned everything you know !

 

[Bruno]

There are a percentage of urban living people who tend to talk down to / act like rural farmers are below them. I heard more comments around this behavior and why hunting / fishing access was denied than any other reason, from friends and neighbors while living there.

I think it cuts both ways, honestly. I’ve had a dairy farmer tell my wife and me that we don’t know what hard work is because we’re not doing manual labor, which is just as dismissive in a different direction. There’s definitely a tendency in some urban circles to look down on rural lifestyles, but there’s also a tendency in some rural circles to undervalue non-physical work. Most people are just working hard in different ways, and it’d probably go a long way if there was a bit more mutual respect instead of assumptions on either side.

 

[CinnamonJoe]

If enough streams on public open-access lands ( SF, NF, SGL ) support viable cold-water fisheries, this is not so big an 'issue'. My preference is for time, talent, treasure to go there: instead of the inevitabilty of fleeting 'arrangements' and easements dealing with private landowners.

Joe

 

[riverwhy]

If enough streams on public open-access lands ( SF, NF, SGL ) support viable cold-water fisheries, this is not so big an 'issue'. My preference is for time, talent, treasure to go there: instead of the inevitabilty of fleeting 'arrangements' and easements dealing with private landowners.

Joe

Can you give an example of time, talent, and treasure? For example Penn’s which has large areas of private land in the upper reaches with substantial public lands downstream. I would love to see more protection and public fishing on those upper parts. Not stocking however. I would not really support a ton of easier access points on the wilder sections.
Also, many in most Pa don’t live in the types of areas you describe.
That’s why I thought utilizing local groups helping willing farmers and landowners keep their lands open would be a good idea. If people don’t help out on the areas then you risk closure. Fishermen have some skin in the game. Would also make those helping out help police those who don’t help and choose to trash the place.

 

[CinnamonJoe]

Can you give an example of time, talent, and treasure? For example Penn’s which has large areas of private land in the upper reaches with substantial public lands downstream. I would love to see more protection and public fishing on those upper parts. Not stocking however. I would not really support a ton of easier access points on the wilder sections.
Also, many in most Pa don’t live in the types of areas you describe.
That’s why I thought utilizing local groups helping willing farmers and landowners keep their lands open would be a good idea. If people don’t help out on the areas then you risk closure. Fishermen have some skin in the game. Would also make those helping out help police those who don’t help and choose to trash the place.

I'm not against what you are saying and proposing.

Answering your question:

Time= volunteering with the DNR, related Eagle Scout projects to help build bank hides on trout streams; cleaning trash along the trout stream

Talent= helping organize volunteers for 'Time'

Treasure= supporting conservation groups monetarily, helping write grants for the county conservation/soil board obtain funds for stream bank retention projects

Just that my preference is to see/support work on maintaining, preserving cold-water fisheries on public lands that, more so than those on private lands, that have a better shot of maintainig that public access, to some level of perpetuity. More streams on watersheds on public lands doing well, that anyone can access, anytime. Plain and simple.

Like many things its complicated, but there is room for different opinions, I hope?

Where I live now, many cold-water fisheries rely on easement agreements with private landowners. Many watersheds themselves here, are precariously on the edge away of major adversity from an accident on the industrial level ag in many headwaters. Believe me, I get it. I think Iowa may have the distinction of being in the top 5 states for the least public lands. Period.

I experienced the whole Espy debacle on the Little J 35 yrs ago; that experience was formative in influencing my thinking on this. That being: access, protection to cold-water fishering/watersheds on private lands is not perpetual or guaranteed in any way whatsoever.

I would never diminish the work and generosity of many private landowners, or the conservation groups working with them to protect and provide access to cold-water fisheries. But, the fact remains that private lands more readily change hands; and in my opinion, are much more at risk of being posted off limits to fishing than say a cold-water fishery in a public forest.

I would rather see my time, time, talent treasure-and conservation groups I support-spent more so on protecting, developing, enhancing cold-water fisheries that anyone can access, anytime, on public lands.

Joe

 

[riverwhy]

So how would you best ensure another ag
Or industrial incident doesnt ruin prime downstream fishing areas flowing through abundant public lands? I would prioritize those to target funds whether it is through purchasing lands or easements. And wherever possible forming partnerships with conservation groups to keep land protected or open. I think we are on the same page.

 

[CinnamonJoe]

I would not be against that all.

Joe