nymphingmaniac
Well-known member
yes. The yellow house area of the J was closed to fishing for about 3, maybe 4 years due to the behavior of non-fisherman. People, for simplicity, just post against all activities and trespassing.
Trout Fishing's Biggest Issue
- Thread starter greenghost
- Start date
Sylvaneous
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- Sep 11, 2006
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It's even bigger for hunting, and it's not just people's behavior. People aren't demons and they weren't angles. I saw it start to happen in the mid-90's up here in the N.W. My assertion is that it's social. It's the attitude that has been fostered, nurtured and developed that someone is taking something from you. More largely, that people are out to get you and you have to defend what is yours. It's a societal issue. It's an angrier people and nation that it used to be. It's a much greedier nation that it used to be. THAT is my assertiion. People got more scared and angry and more greedy. This goes both ways, of course, being a societal problem, for both land owner and sports-person. And that is why I believe there is more posting.
salmo
Well-known member
I note that New York State has acquired extensive easements along many of its most productive trout streams and rivers.
5footfenwick
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They had heard the private groups will safari you into public water reserves for a fee. After being barbless certified, remotely fingerprinted and having their DNA sequenced(a prerequisite for entering any vehicle) they jumped into the tour machine. The government had thought about secretly chipping the fisherman population but then invented smartphones. The population just started to voluntarily carry the tracking devices around themselves. Even replacing them with their own money when they were deemed old or faulty. At least according to history kindle’s. But it had a camera as a distraction so nobody noticed. This actually led to an unexpected side effect. There was a huge surge in arm extension surgery, an elective procedure. Fly fishing soon became less about knowledge and skills and more about who had the longest arms. Those with the most likes on their photos always long armed their fish the best and the farthest. Only two things mattered in flyfishing now. Long arming fish in photos and who had seen the most lure colors in their life. These two things were how a fly fisherman’s salt was judged. This was the pinnacle of modern day flyfishing. The barbless had drank two glass portions each of responsibly and ethically sourced free range water. They sweated just watching the tour guide open gate after gate for their paid caravan. The tour guide seemed to hate the retinal scanner unlocking style of gates. Having to expose his eyes to the UV of this decade was always painful if not done quick. The gates were endless, seemingly to limit access to the last bastion of the public fishermen’s native range. The mandatory multiple gates had been added to all public roads, through the left branch young woman’s creek’s great big beautiful gate act in the late 2020’s. The sun beat down mercilessly without shade. The very last of the trees had all been cut down by 2069 despite the hippie grandma movement from the swifties. The 60’s were a blur to most. The deforestation was largely due to the Be like Clark’s act. This was private property owners legislation for permanent yearly woody debris addition projects on all remaining public water. So much woody additions that no trees remained. “That rapala, that’s a fire tiger” the tour guide mumbles monotone and unenthusiastically. He was by now perched in the spotting chair atop the well stocked rainbow trout colored lifted jeep. As he speaks he points to the final remaining culvert pipe hole. “The spin casters watering hole” he proclaims. Barely visible a lone dirty filthy spin fishermen stands at the edge of the state’s only remaining migratory inhibitor. The last impassible barrier. “Barbs” yells the entire tour group almost in unison as they point, peering through their myopic corrective periscopes from the climate controlled interior of the rainbowmobile. Seemingly this shames the savage back into the brush. There is only 13 acres of public water left in the state with wild or native spin fisherman. Seeing any lure in person was extremely rare, let alone seeing it in use by a poacher.
~Excerpt from George “Western Cigar” Orwell’s Gripping 2049 dystopian flyfishing novel titled “2084”
~Excerpt from George “Western Cigar” Orwell’s Gripping 2049 dystopian flyfishing novel titled “2084”
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The main reason for increased posting is changes in land ownership and land usage.
Many of the "old farm families" allowed land to be open because that was part of their culture of people helping each other out, sharing things etc. The old "barn raising" culture. This idea of sharing was particularly strong for others within the group, i..e. locals. It was a practical, commonsense thing, not just "nice." You help your neighbors, they help you.
It makes less sense regarding outsiders who come and fish. You're helping them, but they aren't helping you.
Rural land ownership patterns, both for farmland and forest land, are changing fast, and have already changed a great deal.
Larger holdings are getting sub-divided into farmettes, and small woodland acreages with a cabin. Smaller holdings are more likely to get posted then larger ones.
And the new owners are mostly not at all part of the "old farm family" culture. They have no assumptions at all that their land is "supposed" to be open to the public. The idea that they would leave their land open to the public never entered their mind. I'm not blaming them at all. I'm just explaining what is happening.
Also there are large private forest holdings that have been posted for a long time, since at least the 1920s. There are large hunting camp properties of 800 to 1000 acres that have been posted for generations.
Many of the "old farm families" allowed land to be open because that was part of their culture of people helping each other out, sharing things etc. The old "barn raising" culture. This idea of sharing was particularly strong for others within the group, i..e. locals. It was a practical, commonsense thing, not just "nice." You help your neighbors, they help you.
It makes less sense regarding outsiders who come and fish. You're helping them, but they aren't helping you.
Rural land ownership patterns, both for farmland and forest land, are changing fast, and have already changed a great deal.
Larger holdings are getting sub-divided into farmettes, and small woodland acreages with a cabin. Smaller holdings are more likely to get posted then larger ones.
And the new owners are mostly not at all part of the "old farm family" culture. They have no assumptions at all that their land is "supposed" to be open to the public. The idea that they would leave their land open to the public never entered their mind. I'm not blaming them at all. I'm just explaining what is happening.
Also there are large private forest holdings that have been posted for a long time, since at least the 1920s. There are large hunting camp properties of 800 to 1000 acres that have been posted for generations.
salmo
Well-known member
Only an old hippie like me would say this, but are you channeling Richard Brautigan? Look it up you younger folks. 🤔
nymphingmaniac
Well-known member
I think you are spot on-culture. Add to your analysis out of towners who purchase properties for their camps and private fishing/hunting grounds.
I read Trout Fishing in America in my 7th grade reading class. Obviously, whoever ordered it was unaware of some of the content!
salmo
Well-known member
Trout Fishing in America Shorty was the man. That book read better while in an altered state.
Bamboozle
Well-known member
Even WITHOUT ownership changes, I know more than a few "old farm families" who got sick up and fed with...
Discovering people on their property without their knowledge, livestock being hassled and snuggled like they were critters in a petting zoo, gates being left open and the one requiring the most chutzpah of all, telling them how manage their property for fishermen...
I helped a few of them put up the signs and apply the purple paint...
Discovering people on their property without their knowledge, livestock being hassled and snuggled like they were critters in a petting zoo, gates being left open and the one requiring the most chutzpah of all, telling them how manage their property for fishermen...
I helped a few of them put up the signs and apply the purple paint...
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That’s an interesting sub-topic and one that to my knowledge has not been directly addressed here. Specifically, what are anglers doing or what have they been doing to come into conflict with the specific needs and specialized circumstances of the agricultural community? Or to put it another way, what should they not be doing if they wish to avoid more posting by that specific community, a community that as a whole has been quite gracious in allowing angler access in Pa. You’ve named a few examples and I blame a lot of that on the urbanization and suburbanization of America and what I suspect is an unfortunate, attendant cluelessness concerning agriculture.
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What if farmers who allow stream access could access volunteer groups of fisherman to do cleanups or even make signs on acceptable use and proper behavior? I think while many people want to help they feel uncomfortable knocking on the door of someone they don’t know. Let’s face it there are some unbalanced people these days with a lot of mistrust and firearms. Back in the day most people were local and you who was friendly and who to avoid. Doing it as part of a group like maybe your local TU would foster more responsibility and improve landowner and land user understanding.
Nymph-wristed
Well-known member
In NEPA in the 80s and 90s we always used to blame "NYC money" but I thought they all would have moved to Montana to set up their very own Dutton Ranch by now?
Bamboozle
Well-known member
I fish a lot of "meadow streams" as I like to call them, streams that flow through pastures full of grazing cattle. It's often a funny sight because for some reason, cows like me. On one particular trip with a buddy at one particular pasture in Berks, the cows followed me from one end of the meadow to the other all morning long.
My buddy later remarked, "Man those cows sure do like you." 🐄
In any case, when we walked up to the barn that morning to ask permission, the first thing the owner said was, "Make sure to close any gate behind you that's closed as you move through the field because some fishermen I've let before, didn't."
With the way these cows followed me that day, if I left a gate or two open, there would be animals in places he didn't want them which would probably have ended my visit then and forever.
There is also the oft told story which I can't verify but believe is true, that the reason the famous Skelly Meadow at Falling Springs where I fished often was posted many moons ago was because a fly fisherman decided to give Mr. Skelly a lecture on how to keep his cows out of the creek...
Possibly in a small way, it has to to with situations where "city folks" move to the country next to a farm and start complaining to the local township council that they smell manure or hear roosters crowing...
I'm not a psychologist, but maybe the city folk's frustrations grow into apathy or resentment that manifests itself into a lack of respect when they are on a farmer's property.
If the farm sells produce, eggs etc. while wearing your fishing hat, shirt etc. so they know it's fishermen who are helping support their business.
Never block a lane. Some lanes are obvious, but sone field lanes are just grassy gaps leading into a field. Never block access to a field.
Don't climb over fences because that can damage them.
Never block a lane. Some lanes are obvious, but sone field lanes are just grassy gaps leading into a field. Never block access to a field.
Don't climb over fences because that can damage them.
Tabasco-Joe
Active member
As someone who just sold woodland with a small brookie stream that was in the family for over 100 years I can tell you that posting in rural areas is more the result of poor behavior by hunters and fishermen than anything else. Same went for farms my family had for almost 100 years.
Trash, damaging property, creating parking areas, etc. Often damaging crops on farms in small game season. I even had one guy nail bait for a trap on my cabin and another try to claim hemhad permission from the owner. Then he argues with me that I didn't own the property. Even after posting my trail cams, picked up pentry of violators.
So from now, on if I own land it gets posted.
While I only own a small piece of property along the WB I'm compelled to post it. Otherwise people park in my driveway. Walk through it day & night & think nothing of whipping it out & taking a whiz against a tree. There are a lot of people out there who feel entitled.
JeffP
Well-known member
I always liked the sign at the cabin at the trestle bridge on Penns. If you post yours, stay off mine. I grew up on a trout stream and I always thought it was awesome and a privilege. If there were worm container, I picked them up. It would have to be a pretty unlikely scenario for me to post. But that's just me. I know on Middle Creek there was a great pool we called Hershey's Hole. It was back a lane and the house was right on the creek. It was heavily stocked and sometimes there would be 20 people at that hole. That might be 1 place I would consider it. It was bought out by the guy that owned the Golden Witch. He built all kinds of out buildings with no permits and started his own business. It was eventually posted. The guy on the end of the stretch above mountain spring road cut down hundreds of trees, posted the entire stretch, and build miles of pathways for all his ATVS. Needless to say, a beautiful stretch of creek is no longer available or stocked.
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tjsingle
Well-known member
I like that sign too.
I always enjoy going up to Maine where implied access is the law, unless its posted its fair game. Most land up there is private, but the sporting tradition up there is strong and people respect the land for the most part.
JimKennedy
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- Feb 27, 2016
- Messages
- 474
Regarding the issue raised, what can be done to get ahead of this:
1-Be more than polite: clean up messes you did not make. I’m presuming everyone on this board says please, thank you, and excuse me as second nature, and (in absolute seriousness) would no more leave a candy wrapper than handle a trout with dry hands. Reality is, we are in the very lucky minority. We were raised by people who held us to a high standard. The standard is low, however, for most of the population. Many of them, however, can be gently urged to take more responsibility. A great way to do this is to fill a bag with garbage at the end of every fishing trip. People who see you doing that might at least think twice about leaving a mess, and some may even ask you why you are doing it. You can say: “because if we all clean up after each other, eventually we won’t have to clean up at all.”
2-sustained civic engagement. There’s something of a tired saw that says, in a democracy, we get the government we deserve. If the people we elect to office only hear from us when we are hopping mad about something once in a while, they can fairly characterize us as hotheaded single issue individuals. If, however, we engage with elected officials and administrators responsible for implementing policies, we can be much more effective at moving the needle. Find the person in pfbc responsible for public lands and fishing rights acquisition, for example. Find out how the process works (to be clear, it doesn’t involve someone proposing the best idea he ever had, followed by a bunch of government rubes seeing the light and making a change before the end of the month). If there’s no fishing rights access expansion program, find out why not and engage your elected officials regularly, and ask about getting legislation drafted and enacted (do not, however, ask a legislator to submit a bill on your behalf. That’s a bill that has a really good chance of getting one vote).
A lot of guys here are at or near retirement (like me) and have more free time now that the kids are grown. It is possible to make a difference, particularly with administration folks because most people who do the grunt work in public lands, fishing and hunting went into that line of work because, like us, they love the outdoors.
Keep in mind, to be successful, you will end up working hard on a limited number of projects, so pick the ones that are important to you.
And you do not need to represent a club or group or anything else aside from yourself. The first amendment gives you five rights, including petition the government. In theory your say is as important as that of the highest paid lobbyist in Harrisburg. In reality, your word carries less weight, but it absolutely carries more than you might think, and a lot more than the guy who just sits around complaining.
1-Be more than polite: clean up messes you did not make. I’m presuming everyone on this board says please, thank you, and excuse me as second nature, and (in absolute seriousness) would no more leave a candy wrapper than handle a trout with dry hands. Reality is, we are in the very lucky minority. We were raised by people who held us to a high standard. The standard is low, however, for most of the population. Many of them, however, can be gently urged to take more responsibility. A great way to do this is to fill a bag with garbage at the end of every fishing trip. People who see you doing that might at least think twice about leaving a mess, and some may even ask you why you are doing it. You can say: “because if we all clean up after each other, eventually we won’t have to clean up at all.”
2-sustained civic engagement. There’s something of a tired saw that says, in a democracy, we get the government we deserve. If the people we elect to office only hear from us when we are hopping mad about something once in a while, they can fairly characterize us as hotheaded single issue individuals. If, however, we engage with elected officials and administrators responsible for implementing policies, we can be much more effective at moving the needle. Find the person in pfbc responsible for public lands and fishing rights acquisition, for example. Find out how the process works (to be clear, it doesn’t involve someone proposing the best idea he ever had, followed by a bunch of government rubes seeing the light and making a change before the end of the month). If there’s no fishing rights access expansion program, find out why not and engage your elected officials regularly, and ask about getting legislation drafted and enacted (do not, however, ask a legislator to submit a bill on your behalf. That’s a bill that has a really good chance of getting one vote).
A lot of guys here are at or near retirement (like me) and have more free time now that the kids are grown. It is possible to make a difference, particularly with administration folks because most people who do the grunt work in public lands, fishing and hunting went into that line of work because, like us, they love the outdoors.
Keep in mind, to be successful, you will end up working hard on a limited number of projects, so pick the ones that are important to you.
And you do not need to represent a club or group or anything else aside from yourself. The first amendment gives you five rights, including petition the government. In theory your say is as important as that of the highest paid lobbyist in Harrisburg. In reality, your word carries less weight, but it absolutely carries more than you might think, and a lot more than the guy who just sits around complaining.
