Trout Fishing's Biggest Issue

[greenghost]

It’s not pollution, climate change, or poaching —it’s access. Increasingly, land posting is the primary barrier. This article highlights several streams that have already been closed to stocking this year due to landowners restricting access. Another example is Allenberry Resort, which has introduced a new (free) daily permit system to manage entry along its stretch of the Yellow Breeches—an effort that may ultimately limit public use. There’s even a possibility that stocking could be discontinued in that section.


While I don't know every landowner’s reasoning, these restrictions are likely a response to growing pressures: overcrowding, litter, and inconsiderate behavior such as poor parking practices. Some may simply be the "it's-my-land-and-I'll-do what-I want-to-do" attitude.


The question now is how to get ahead of this trend—what steps can anglers and the broader community take to reduce conflicts, build trust with landowners, and help prevent future closures? Aside from being more considerate as an angler, what else?

 

[tjsingle]

I think it starts first with being respectful of landowners who allow access. Not leaving trash, not parking on grass, and also calling out those who aren't doing that. Sometimes I'll fill my net with trash if I see it, or pick up crap on the walk back to my truck.

I think that local organizations like TU chapters play an integral role as well. By coordinating access, resolve issues, etc.

Ultimately what I really would like to see is PFBC leveraging license fees to obtain easements, etc so that access can be maintained. As much as I would like PA to be a state like Montana where you have much more water rights, I just don't think that'll happen short of getting a time machine and amending state law.

 

[joebamboo]

Stocking has aready been discontinued on that section of the Breeches. Unfortunately we sometimes are our own worst enemies!

 

[Nymph-wristed]

I think it starts first with being respectful of landowners who allow access. Not leaving trash, not parking on grass, and also calling out those who aren't doing that. Sometimes I'll fill my net with trash if I see it, or pick up crap on the walk back to my truck.

I agree it starts here. The way some folks leave public and private land with access is dreadful sometimes.

I have heard several stories from landowners about why they closed access, and it usually involves someone speaking badly to their kids or some other interpersonal interaction that went wrong.

However, when LLCs and PE own all the land, all the good behavior and respect in the world won't count for ****...

 

[tjsingle]

It's not a one size fits all solution either. Streams that run through more residential areas are going to be more difficult as there are more landowners to deal with.

However, when LLCs and PE own all the land, all the good behavior and respect in the world won't count for ****...

I think this is the part where having a larger organization such as PFBC, TU, a township or county could help with maintaining access or even obtaining it.

There's a lot that goes on with opening day, a lot is tradition, but there are some people who take their living room and bring it to the creek and will hang out all day long. That's a lot different than one or two guys fishing a pool for 30 minutes and moving up stream...

 

[Nymph-wristed]

It's not a one size fits all solution either. Streams that run through more residential areas are going to be more difficult as there are more landowners to deal with.



I think this is the part where having a larger organization such as PFBC, TU, a township or county could help with maintaining access or even obtaining it.

Very true. Non-fishing visitors also contribute to the closing of sections. Rope swings, spray paint, dogs off leash chasing wildlife, mountain bikes eroding trails, and so on. Dirty fishermen are only part of the equation and likely have the least impact in many cases.

I am in favor of larger efforts to challenge access laws, too. Had I the deep pockets, I would be fighting for the Brodhead to be navigable, for example 🙂

 

[JG63]

It’s not pollution, climate change, or poaching —it’s access. Increasingly, land posting is the primary barrier. This article highlights several streams that have already been closed to stocking this year due to landowners restricting access. Another example is Allenberry Resort, which has introduced a new (free) daily permit system to manage entry along its stretch of the Yellow Breeches—an effort that may ultimately limit public use. There’s even a possibility that stocking could be discontinued in that section.


While I don't know every landowner’s reasoning, these restrictions are likely a response to growing pressures: overcrowding, litter, and inconsiderate behavior such as poor parking practices. Some may simply be the "it's-my-land-and-I'll-do what-I want-to-do" attitude.


The question now is how to get ahead of this trend—what steps can anglers and the broader community take to reduce conflicts, build trust with landowners, and help prevent future closures? Aside from being more considerate as an angler, what else?

Take up golf …

 

[troutbert]

Dirty fishermen are only part of the equation and likely have the least impact in many cases.

We do a cleanup every year on Spring Creek. Trash thrown by fishermen is a very small percentage of the total we clean up.

There seems to be a common idea that if no one threw trash or damaged property that everything would remain open. I think that idea is wrong. It assumes that landowners want to have their land open to the public, but are forced to close it because of littering, vandalism etc. That's true for some landowners.

But other landowners buy land and never considered even for a minute having their land open to the public. And I'm not blaming them for that at all.

 

[troutbert]

Stocking has aready been discontinued on that section of the Breeches. Unfortunately we sometimes are our own worst enemies!

Can you explain what you mean? How are we to blame for that stretch being closed?

 

[The Rodfather]

While those are some very real reasons why some landowners restrict access, I have found, in my time fishing, that the best way to protect fishing access is to have the state purchase access.

Flyfishing, as a community, are the best stewards of the natural resources as far a outdoors recreation. Probably because we have to be more intimate with the biology of the waterways instead of just throwing a spinner or worm or rapala.

Some landowners have a hard no policy but a lot of them that I've talked to are willing to work with you on an individual basis. They just dont want to have to pick up trash and have the noise.

The biggest issue to me is the fact that PFBC has upwards of $230,000,000 spending allocated through 2030 through capital funds, growing greener funds and license sales revenue and they do a horrible job of purchasing access and/or leases to ensure access. Instead they keep doubling and tripling down on the stocking program that is a massive net negative on the financial report.

Part of what we do at DCLOC is building relationships and discussing our values and real conservation with landowners on the streams we like to fish to ensure continued access. We are all part of larger communities and when folks get to know you on a personal level they are much more willing to allow access.

The Rodfather
Engagement Czar and Conservation Chair
Dauphin County League of Chubsmen

 

[Bamboozle]

When ownership doesn't change hands, most often bad behavior LEADS to a lack of access. And a big part of the permission problem is the entitlement attitude and arrogance a lot people have in regards to good behavior in general, even if it has nothing to do with fishing.

For example...

EVERY year I contact PennDOT to pick-up the unbelievable amount of trash on the side of a local state road not far from my house. I don't feel it should be PennDOT's responsibility to pick up after slobs, but I'm not doing it...​

​

FWIW - I don't remember ever seeing as much litter strewn along the highways and byways IN MY LIFE and I remember the "Crying (Italian) Indian." I also have ZERO faith it will get better because of concern...​

​

Every time I call to cancel or reschedule a dinner reservation, management thanks me profusely because they tell me most folks just don't show up...​

​

There is hardly a single place I fish, walk or hike where I don't see improperly discarded trash and that includes faraway places, SGL's & State Parks...​

​

Add to that noise, poaching, illegal fishing, ATV tracks, fire rings, dogs, target shooting, rope swings, dam building or those stupid piles of rocks and you get the idea...​

​

Despite how much trash YOU pick up or how many times YOU politely ask, until there is a wholesale change in this kind of bad behavior; expect more posting and I don't blame or begrudge landowners one tiny bit.

I've spoken to more than a few landowners who thank me for taking the time to ask for permission and my stewardship, but the answer is still NO because, "If I let you fish, the rest of them will assume it is OK too..."

That's a pretty sad outlook on what to expect going forward...

Anyone advocating for a Montana solution will see ferocious pushback on a local level from your effected friends & neighbors (which includes me) if government decides to give unrestricted access; AKA wholesale permission for people to trash private property. Because in my experience, the arrogant & ignorant WON'T behave or respect the adjacent property or property owners.

Or maybe we'll get lucky and they will at least throw their trash out the window of their vehicle on the WAY to the private property... 🙄

In the meantime, I don't expect it to get better so I'm always on my best behavior on ALL property, private or public; I donate annually to PFBC programs that acquire access (YES there ARE programs), I belong to a couple of conservancies that do the same...

And I post my property which coincidentally, has a stream flowing through. 🙂

 

[joebamboo]

Can you explain what you mean? How are we to blame for that stretch being closed?

I was merely letting him know that that stretch was no longer stocked. As far as being our own worst enemy is in regards as to how little respect some have while accessing a landownder property.

 

[Bamboozle]

I was merely letting him know that that stretch was no longer stocked. As far as being our own worst enemy is in regards as to how little respect some have while accessing a landownder property.

I know that Yellow Breeches Anglers took Section 03 off their stocking list, but the PFBC still has the April 22 Section 03 stocking on THEIR stocking list as of a minute ago...

 

[joebamboo]

I know that Yellow Breeches Anglers took Section 03 off their stocking list, but the PFBC still has the April 22 Section 03 stocking on THEIR stocking list as of a minute ago...

Got this from someone who would definately know. Evidently, PFBC has not updated their site. That section will not be stocked! Who knows when we will get the whole story?

 

[The Rodfather]

If that section is no longer stocked, does Orvis eventually pull its designation from Allenberry?

 

[GANGGREEN]

When ownership doesn't change hands, most often bad behavior LEADS to a lack of access. And a big part of the permission problem is the entitlement attitude and arrogance a lot people have in regards to good behavior in general, even if it has nothing to do with fishing.

For example...

EVERY year I contact PennDOT to pick-up the unbelievable amount of trash on the side of a local state road not far from my house. I don't feel it should be PennDOT's responsibility to pick up after slobs, but I'm not doing it...​

​

FWIW - I don't remember ever seeing as much litter strewn along the highways and byways IN MY LIFE and I remember the "Crying (Italian) Indian." I also have ZERO faith it will get better because of concern...​

​

Every time I call to cancel or reschedule a dinner reservation, management thanks me profusely because they tell me most folks just don't show up...​

​

There is hardly a single place I fish, walk or hike where I don't see improperly discarded trash and that includes faraway places, SGL's & State Parks...​

​

Add to that noise, poaching, illegal fishing, ATV tracks, fire rings, dogs, target shooting, rope swings, dam building or those stupid piles of rocks and you get the idea...​

​

Despite how much trash YOU pick up or how many times YOU politely ask, until there is a wholesale change in this kind of bad behavior; expect more posting and I don't blame or begrudge landowners one tiny bit.

I've spoken to more than a few landowners who thank me for taking the time to ask for permission and my stewardship, but the answer is still NO because, "If I let you fish, the rest of them will assume it is OK too..."

That's a pretty sad outlook on what to expect going forward...

Anyone advocating for a Montana solution will see ferocious pushback on a local level from your effected friends & neighbors (which includes me) if government decides to give unrestricted access; AKA wholesale permission for people to trash private property. Because in my experience, the arrogant & ignorant WON'T behave or respect the adjacent property or property owners.

Or maybe we'll get lucky and they will at least throw their trash out the window of their vehicle on the WAY to the private property... 🙄

In the meantime, I don't expect it to get better so I'm always on my best behavior on ALL property, private or public; I donate annually to PFBC programs that acquire access (YES there ARE programs), I belong to a couple of conservancies that do the same...

And I post my property which coincidentally, has a stream flowing through. 🙂

I agree with this almost entirely. For perspective, I'm also a landowner with a fair length of a Class A wild brown trout stream that runs through my property (probably more than 1/4 mile, but less than half a mile). Whenever these discussions arise (which is pretty frequently on the average fishing forum), I find that the vast majority of those who believe that landowners should be MANDATED BY LAW to allow access to anyone for any reason are those who don't own land (or who own a 1/2 acre lot somewhere). Just like those who are very willing to have the government tax YOU and spend YOUR money on their pet projects, it's easy enough for people who don't own land to decide for those who do how they should behave.

The fact is that I don't physically post my land, partly because I do allow some access, but mostly because I find posted signs personally objectionable and I don't want to be bothered to place and maintain them. So, I'm pretty pro-active about speaking to anglers (or anyone else who I see on my property). I ask who they are, if they've ever inquired about permission or rules and what their intent is. Generally speaking, I allow those who fly fish and who catch and release. I do allow some spin fishing depending on who the person is, what sort of fishing they wish to do and whether they've asked permission, shown some respect when confronted, etc..

The rules even IF I allow an angler(s) to fish is that they MUST check with me at least once annually, that they MUST release everything immediately unharmed, that they must police their actions, take all of their litter with them (or any that they find left by someone else) and that they not make a nuisance of themselves and fish here maybe once or twice per year (I'd rather allow 20 guys to fish the property once or twice than to allow the same 5 guys to fish it 3 days per week). Case in point, I revoked permission once after I saw the same guy (happened to be a local) parked on my property every day for two weeks when a decent hatch was coming off. I caught him coming out one night and asked how many times he had been there in the last two weeks. His response was that he'd been there every evening for 2 weeks. I explained to him that I had yet to fish the property even once all year and that I'd prefer if he not educate the fish and ***** them all up by hooking repeatedly. His response wasn't what I wished to hear so I explained that if I ever caught him on the property again, that he'd be reported for defiant trespass and cited.

A little decency goes a long way, but I'd remind some that my property was listed for sale for a while before I purchased it. Anyone could have bought it. Anyone could offer to pay my property taxes in exchange for access or offer to maintain the property for me, but oddly, nobody ever has. I think given the situation, I've been VERY generous about allowing some public access. I'd also suggest that generally, I'm a fan of conservation easements or some other legal access that's paid for or arranged by the state, conservation organizations or conservancies and really think that's how we should direct our time and money in the future.

 

[GANGGREEN]

I should also mention that I've spoken with all of the neighboring landowners, and they've basically told me that I could do as I wished regarding access on their properties too. In other words, if I chose to do so, I believe I could probably get signed agreements from landowners on several miles of the stream all suggesting that trespass was prohibited by anybody or signing an agreement that only landowners (or guests in some limited fashion) were allowed access. I haven't done it for any number of reasons, but there are times (usually after dealing with a loudmouth) that I consider doing so.

 

[joebamboo]

If that section is no longer stocked, does Orvis eventually pull its designation from Allenberry?

Not necessarily, Allenberry could buy and provide trout for guests.

 

[nymphingmaniac]

I think it starts first with being respectful of landowners who allow access. Not leaving trash, not parking on grass, and also calling out those who aren't doing that. Sometimes I'll fill my net with trash if I see it, or pick up crap on the walk back to my truck.

I think that local organizations like TU chapters play an integral role as well. By coordinating access, resolve issues, etc.

Ultimately what I really would like to see is PFBC leveraging license fees to obtain easements, etc so that access can be maintained. As much as I would like PA to be a state like Montana where you have much more water rights, I just don't think that'll happen short of getting a time machine and amending state law.

the main issue is to get landowners to agree to easements. Finding the money is not the bottleneck in most cases.

 

[nymphingmaniac]

While those are some very real reasons why some landowners restrict access, I have found, in my time fishing, that the best way to protect fishing access is to have the state purchase access.

Flyfishing, as a community, are the best stewards of the natural resources as far a outdoors recreation. Probably because we have to be more intimate with the biology of the waterways instead of just throwing a spinner or worm or rapala.

Some landowners have a hard no policy but a lot of them that I've talked to are willing to work with you on an individual basis. They just dont want to have to pick up trash and have the noise.

The biggest issue to me is the fact that PFBC has upwards of $230,000,000 spending allocated through 2030 through capital funds, growing greener funds and license sales revenue and they do a horrible job of purchasing access and/or leases to ensure access. Instead they keep doubling and tripling down on the stocking program that is a massive net negative on the financial report.

Part of what we do at DCLOC is building relationships and discussing our values and real conservation with landowners on the streams we like to fish to ensure continued access. We are all part of larger communities and when folks get to know you on a personal level they are much more willing to allow access.

The Rodfather
Engagement Czar and Conservation Chair
Dauphin County League of Chubsmen

experience on the J is that finding the money is not the issue, but securing willing landowners.