Switzerland- Why can’t we do this?

[riverwhy]

So I was wrong about population density, I looked it up.

I'll stand by the claim that things are getting better in PA as far as fishing. I mean, there exist plenty of examples of streams going both uphill and downhill. Plenty of threats, but also lots of improvement. Acid rain has significantly improved, lots of AMD streams coming back due to treatment, been a lot of sewage improvement, we're much better today of controlling sedimentation around construction zones, making groundwater recharge areas, etc.

I mean you go back to the late 1800's, early 1900's when we pretty much clearcut the whole state and sedimentation was a huge issue. Followed by all the damage coal mining and acid rain did. Yeah, we're a ton better. I think thats the natural progression, a country goes through an industrial revolution and ruins the environment, and then slowly improves as it matures. Europe is farther along than us on account of starting earlier, and China's in the middle of it now.

I will also say while Switzerland is just stunning visually and really cool culturally, they have WAY less outdoor recreational opportunity than us. Both game and fish. They have some fishing but I was rather struck by how dead a lot of their water is, as far as fish density I dont think its close. And wild game, same way. Now, natural geology has a lot to do with that. They have some rich limestone streams in the north, but the Alps streams are glacier fed with very little nutrients, while the valleys are spread out housing. They have very little forestland. I had a guide there and he had spent time in PA and said he was very jealous of what we have, so there's a little "grass is greener" in your post. The hardwood forests of the eastern US rival pretty much anywhere in the world as far as natural carrying capacity of wildlife in general (yeah Africa is up there). And the western US just has sooooo much wilderness land.

The title of my post had grass is greener written all over it! But I admitted Switzerland, has its faults. As Tom is begging for us all to note, Switzerland is much smaller and I assume the federal government is more of catalyst for change there which can overcome inertia in a bigger country like the US. I think it is kind of irrelevant that the Swiss industrialized 100 years before us. Too much time has passed for that to be a factor. With the size of the US and the fact that environmental destruction was more spread out and higher in totality, I think it just took longer for people to see it as a problem and build the political willpower. I think one difference here is the role of sportsman's groups and the role of the hunters and fisherman to at least make small changes locally. Those groups (or more accurately individuals who belong to those groups) however have not been as supportive of regulatory changes to improve the environment as a whole. I have included a cool link to the history of water conservation history in Switzerland for reference. There is a reference to sportsman's groups in the postwar era, though I am assuming they have not had a significant role in more recent years as it seems the urban population has had more influence in environmental matters that are not as sympathetic to the sporting traditions.
I will finish by saying it is apparent that we all make mistakes basing our assumptions on our experiences. I know from your past posts that you are one of the most knowledgeable and intelligent individuals on this board. I made my assumptions about Switzerland at least partially based on my visits to the more urbanized portion of Switzerland and you made yours based on travels in the rural areas. I think this is just an opportunity to all of us I to avoid forming strong or loud opinions on things without the full picture. This is especially important in the era of social media. I began this thread excited about what I had seen on my vacation and hoping there would be varied perspectives and I continue to look forward to all the great input and perspectives.

Water Timeline

 

[troutbert]

Is the trout fishing better in Switzerland than in the US?

 

[dudemanspecial]

Is the trout fishing better in Switzerland than in the US?

Now we are getting down to the brass tacks.

 

[riverwhy]

The Barbel fishing looks much better!

 

[wildtrout2]

Is the trout fishing better in Switzerland than in the US?

There is not even a small sliver of comparison in regards to trout fishing in these two countries.

 

[pcray1231]

Is the trout fishing better in Switzerland than in the US?

Overall no. I mean the US is big, is it better than in Texas? Sure.

But Switzerland has very little in regards to a fishing industry. Their laws are catch and keep, it is illegal to release fish intentionally. There are some limestone streams in the north that are similar to English chalk type streams and have wild fish, but I dont think those have near the fish density of our better streams. In the Alps there are mountain lakes and streams. The geology at higher elevations is mostly granite, there's very little groundwater, its glacial melt and extremely low in nutrients, and very high gradient, and having breeding cobble is rare. Many of those streams and lakes, including the one I fished, are fingerling stocked by private entities because there's very little reproduction and no public stocking. Landowners backpack the fingerlings in. Lower elevation streams have some trout but are still pretty barren.

There are lots of lakes, and a popular way to fish is trolling for pike.

What they do have is plenty of cold water. Water temps are not a huge issue.

 

[salmo]

I agree that many cities in France are cleaner than in the US. Paris was fairly clean but Bordeaux was spotless as were San Sebastian and Pamplona in Spain. I broke my heart while in the South of France and Northern Spain to drive over some fairly famous trout waters that Pappa Hemmingway fished in so many years ago. When I go to Croatia in March I hope that I can get away for maybe 4 hours on the fly. My roots on both sides of my family are Croat and this will probably be my last time to visit. Nova Godina to all of my friends on this site!

 

[Mike]

What they do have is plenty of cold water.

There are concerns about the future dry season water supplies needed for agriculture and hydropower. The glaciers are major sources of water. Their on-going and accelerating recession rates are being closely monitored by glaciologists.

 

[Kms]

As Tom is begging for us all to note, Switzerland is much smaller and I assume the federal government is more of catalyst for change there which can overcome inertia in a bigger country like the US.

Unless things have changed radically, the Swiss federal government has been primarily focused on international affairs including currency and defense, The Swiss cantons (analogues to our states) exercise much greater authority and autonomy than do local governments in the US.

 

[riverwhy]

Being a federation, you are correct! It appears that the cantons do have much leeway in how they go about implementing climate goals for example. Some cantons, actually have goals above the recommendations, and some below. The more urban cantons set higher goals while the more rural ones less so. However, the national government has a large role in forestry and water quality policy. I have often thought that it would make more sense to have the U.S. regulate more uniformly by region, say by watershed rather than by states boundaries that are pretty random. We do some of this by agreements between states that share a common resource or where one state may be more negatively impact by pollution from another state as was the case with acid rain. Thanks for making me think differently and forcing me to dig a little deeper.

 

[pcray1231]

Goals, sure, thats international relations. There is zero power to enforce or influence actual businesses though. Not that Switzerland is a super manufacturing heavy country, other than watches.

But its largely the same here and most places. Maybe some regs on fuel efficiency for automobiles, but by and large international agreements on emissions stay on paper and don't translate into requirements manufacturers have to meet.

 

[Hunttroutbum]

Are fish showing up in Dents Run from Porcupine Run to the mouth?

Yes. Stocked fish though. No brook trout. But they are up in Sterling Run Tribs where they aren’t supposed to be.
Was a side trip to see if could actually catch trout in Bennetts and Dents main stem. Both were successful.

 

[Hunttroutbum]

Rocks are not as red as I remembered in the 70s. But do not inspire confidence.

 

[dudemanspecial]

Bennetts Branch gets a TON of stocked fish dumped it.

 

[riverwhy]

Yes. Stocked fish though. No brook trout. But they are up in Sterling Run Tribs where they aren’t supposed to be.

Are you saying stockies or Brookies are in Sterling Run tributaries?

 

[Hunttroutbum]

Brookies In most all. Not excessive. But they are there. Did a day trip to see how many streams could catch trout in one day. The Sterling run tribs panned out.

 

[Hunttroutbum]

not stocked at all. But marginal waters.

 

[Hunttroutbum]

In that area so many blue lines to choose from. Good to see some additional streams. Bennetts Branch probably will be an amazing trout stream in the next 20 years.

 

[dudemanspecial]

Bennetts Branch probably will be an amazing trout stream in the next 20 years.

I dont know about that. I think it's too marginal for that. It gets warm and real low in the summer.

 

[troutbert]

I did a Google search for "Switzerland streams" then looked at photos. Many of them show short grass along the streams. That's not a good way to manage streams.