Penn's Creek 4/15-16/22

[silverfox]

This is the stream reports forum right?

No Moon, it's a hostile takeover. We all had a meeting (you weren't invited) and we agreed we were going to buy KeviR a case of good beer as payback for trashing his stream report post.

 

[moon1284]

No Moon, it's a hostile takeover. We all had a meeting (you weren't invited) and we agreed we were going to buy KeviR a case of good beer as payback for trashing his stream report post.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Only problem is I would point out that if they had instead used 1 male and 1 female transplanted, which would have also increased genetic diversity to an extent right. Would those results also suggest to you that movement is not suboptimal because they became some small non measurable “more diverse”? The problem with saying current movement is optimum from that example all comes back to the shifting base line syndrome where progressively the bar gets lowered and lowered and what is billed as a “win” moves south with it. If increasing connectivity is as inimoortant as you make it out to be why replace a culvert that’s 40% passable right?

Only a couple brook trout need to wander up there every few years in a high water event when it’s passable rebased on what your saying right? Why are those getting ripped out and replaced like hotcakes in our state. Why is connectivity one of the most important thing EBTJV is harping on. Why is David kayzak presenting slides to advise managers like Pa fish and boat at regional conferences that have a picture of brown trout rainbow trout and perched culverts all on the same slide with the title BARRIERS. I won’t claim to know better than Dr. David Kayzak, will you?

The real truth here is that connectivity is inhibited by more than just concrete and corrugated metal. You tend to really down play biotic impairments in trout streams like stocked/invasive species. If they are as insignificant as you would have me believe why are chief scientists of NGO’s, federal science fisheries science labs, and academics saying the total opposite?

As for genetic diversity and size, the study brookies got significantly bigger in the F1 generation post genetic rescue that increased genetic diversity in the NC trial. There’s not much to argue with there. Inbreeding is not good for many things in nature, growth being one of them.

And as for your question about where are these areas where allopatric brook trout have adequate habitat for larger fish and forage base, that’s EAXCTLY my point. That area you speak of like it doesn’t exist is just what ever downstream body of water their allopatric stream drains into for 3 colder months a year but they are not using it like they should due to invasive species. When deiterman and hoxmeir removed browns in the Midwest the brook trout came downstream and reclaimed that excellent forage and habitat.

And as for the effect of Stocking rainbows over browns that’s totally different than brook trout.

Correction: 3 seasons a year

 

[GeneBeam]

This is the stream reports forum right?

No it two guys taking over a stream report forum, again and trying to prove they are the foremost experts in saving the brook trout. They should just PM each other and leave us alone to read stream report.

 

[silverfox]

No it two guys taking over a stream report forum, again and trying to prove they are the foremost experts in saving the brook trout. They should just PM each other and leave us alone to read stream report.

Only 2? Or 2 that you disagree with?

 

[Fish Sticks]

Agree that it’s a limited number of movers when compared to entire population and I can understand connected fish separated by not that much space could be genetically different since the majority of brookies in Shannon’s study did not display movement.

I was talking only about movement from the stand point of the success of those wanting or trying to move since it seems to be more behavior than genetic, not suggesting everyone needs to move. Also I don’t think specific genes per say dictate size but more suggest inbreeding might limit size through decreasing fitness and ability to grow. I agree with silver fox that stunting could be a survival technique if they are getting pushed out of downstream
Waters by other trout species generating a need to survive in infertile environments after being displaced upstream.

Either way KeviR found some wild native brook trout that do move it seems and that’s awesome their taking advantage of the bug factory down there to grow. If you took any picks Kev we would love to see what the fish looked like. I’m jelly man, I most often only can catch browns in Penns except for a few trips a year, you caught something special.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Only 2? Or 2 that you disagree with?

Team MoonBeam!

 

[troutbert]

What's odd is that we never caught brookies in the earlier days. That includes both stocked and wilds. Last few years more of both.

In the past, Penns Creek was stocked the whole way down to the top of the special regs area. That boundary is well below Swift Run.

There is no longer stocking in that stretch. That is probably the main thing responsible for more native brook trout showing up in that section of Penns Creek.,

 

[Fish Sticks]

I have always wonder if you go even further down to where Henstep or little weikert comes out if you can find brookies in the main stem there too. I’ve not fished that area much because there is still stocking down there and it’s sooo packed where little weikert dumps out. Also wondered about above spring mills but I’ve never fished really high up in penns.

 

[McSneek]

No it two guys taking over a stream report forum, again and trying to prove they are the foremost experts in saving the brook trout. They should just PM each other and leave us alone to read stream report.

I am waiting for the mods to step in and put a stop to these two thread high jackers. Go copy and paste somewhere else please.

 

[troutbert]

Also wondered about above spring mills but I’ve never fished really high up in penns.

I've fished a fair bit from Coburn on upstream to Spring Mills and little bit above there, and have never caught a brookie up there, and have never spoke to anyone who as. I think there are none there, just brown trout. That is a farming valley with limestone soils up there.

Below Coburn, Penns Creek cuts through forested ridges, which totally changes its character, and the character of its tributaries. There are forested freestone tribs there that have brook trout populations.

 

[afishinado]

Several Board members voiced their displeasure about this thread being "hijacked".

To be clear about policy, commenting on a stream report is fine, and often leads to more good info about the stream, fish, hatches, etc. But going off on a tangent about other things, even if it's related in some small way to the stream report is not the way things should be done. Please respect the original poster.

If a board member wishes to impart other FFing info or comments, they are welcome to create a separate thread in another appropriate forum to post their info or comments. Thanks.

 

[pcray1231]

I can't speak to numbers based on my occasional fly rod sampling method. But I have been catching both stocked and wild brookies in Penns fairly regularly for the 20 years or so that I've fished it. Sure I catch more browns, but having a brookie in the mix every trip or three is very normal. I'd say 1 in every 20 fish if I had to put a number on it. It's probably less than that, they're just easier to catch. They're always an oddball. Come evening spinner fall time when the browns all line up for the smorgasboard. When you're out there trying not to fall on your butt in the half light as you target that line of fish feeding against the far bank or in the current seam. And there's that "plop" behind you out in the middle where you just waded through. So you let a backcast fall and wham. That's the brookie.

I do fish the Poe Paddy area and below more often than anywhere else. The stocked brookies are noticably associated with the mouth of Big Poe and just below. Not sure I've ever caught a clearly stocked one below the mouth of Swift Run. I believe all of the wild ones I caught were below that, from Swift on down through the ALO section. I believe the most likely source is Swift Run. And they are definitely wild but tend to be on the larger (7-9 honest inches) and less colorful side, it's my belief they entered Penns as adults and have been there a while.

Swift Run hasn't impressed me much, I have fished it. But yes it has fish.

I have never caught small, 3-6" type brookies in Penns. From a conservation standpoint, I would hazard a guess that Swift spits a smattering of brookies of all age classes into Penns. The adults do just fine and stay and grow a while. The young ones end up in the belly of browns.