Penn's Creek 4/15-16/22

[KeviR]

A couple of buddies and I camped at Poe Paddy Thursday and Friday nights. Thursday night was pretty chilly, Friday was better.
We fished downstream from the park through the braids and somewhat below. Weather was gusty both days.
Friday morning there were a fair number of Grannoms coming off but no fish working them that I could see. Tried some Grannom emerger patterns but got no takers. We all picked up fish on a variety of nymphs, with no discernible preference. Most fish came on the upper dropper and in faster water so the fish were definitely active. We caught probably as many brookies as browns. I didn't think Penn's had many wild brookies, so maybe they were stocked. But their pectoral fins looked intact, so if they were stocked, I don't think it was recently. There were Hendricksons later in the day but not a great number. Again, no visible takers. Right before dark there were lots of stoneflies, Grannoms and Hendrickson spinners over the water. Fish started rising greedily right before dark, so I assume the spinners were the feast. But it was too dark and I was too chilly to tie on an imitation, so they will live to rise another day. We all managed at least one nice brown.
Saturday dawned warm and pleasant then about 10:00, the wind picked up and the temperature started to drop. There were a few sporadic Grannoms coming off and a few sporadic risers. We headed down to the large pool by the tunnel outlet. We started seeing a few fish working and noticed that there were Quill Gordons on the water. Picked up a few fish on a parachute. Again as many brooks as browns. Nothing big but it was nice to get some dry fly action for the first time this year. The fish seemed to be willing as long as the presentation was correct. Penn's fish aren't forgiving of a dragging fly or line sliding over them.

 

[Fish Sticks]

A couple of buddies and I camped at Poe Paddy Thursday and Friday nights. Thursday night was pretty chilly, Friday was better.
We fished downstream from the park through the braids and somewhat below. Weather was gusty both days.
Friday morning there were a fair number of Grannoms coming off but no fish working them that I could see. Tried some Grannom emerger patterns but got no takers. We all picked up fish on a variety of nymphs, with no discernible preference. Most fish came on the upper dropper and in faster water so the fish were definitely active. We caught probably as many brookies as browns. I didn't think Penn's had many wild brookies, so maybe they were stocked. But their pectoral fins looked intact, so if they were stocked, I don't think it was recently. There were Hendricksons later in the day but not a great number. Again, no visible takers. Right before dark there were lots of stoneflies, Grannoms and Hendrickson spinners over the water. Fish started rising greedily right before dark, so I assume the spinners were the feast. But it was too dark and I was too chilly to tie on an imitation, so they will live to rise another day. We all managed at least one nice brown.
Saturday dawned warm and pleasant then about 10:00, the wind picked up and the temperature started to drop. There were a few sporadic Grannoms coming off and a few sporadic risers. We headed down to the large pool by the tunnel outlet. We started seeing a few fish working and noticed that there were Quill Gordons on the water. Picked up a few fish on a parachute. Again as many brooks as browns. Nothing big but it was nice to get some dry fly action for the first time this year. The fish seemed to be willing as long as the presentation was correct. Penn's fish aren't forgiving of a dragging fly or line sliding over them.

Those brookies probably weren’t stocked. Penns has a large amount of class A and wild reproductions streams attached to it and I and a few others I know catch more wild native brook trout in penns than you would think. They tend not to be found in as much abundance compared to the browns, even in penns even in the colder months. The vast majority of current fisheries research on the interactions between brook and brown trout points to that there would be more and larger brook trout in the main stem of penns if the brown trout were not present. It’s relatively clean bug rich water that’s below 60 right now, yet the majority stay in the tribs for that reason instead of moving down there to gorge and grow most likely.

I will be fishing Poe paddy next week hope to hit grannoms and hendricksons! Thanks for the report!

 

[DaveKile]

@KeviR thanks for the details on the hatches and your challenges. Can be a common experience when there are hatches. When Penns defies logic I try to be illogical too.

 

[McSneek]

A couple of years ago I caught several brook trout in the same stretches the poster mentioned that I believe were stocked fish. They had nice fins and all but Penns isn’t full of 11” and 12” native brook trout. I always suspected someone dumped some excess fish in or a whole bunch of them made their way down from Big Poe.

Might catch a small native now and then but nothing like what I experienced at that time.

 

[JeffP]

If I had to guess, I would say stocked from Poe although who knows. We have definitely caught a decent # of stocked brooks from Poe and a few natives over the years. I have a hard time believing that trickles like Swift and Panther could produce that number on the mainstream. Brookies on Poe seem down. I wonder what Poe was like before the dam?

 

[JeffP]

Thanks for the Poe report! Our trip got postponed until later June. Fingers crossed we have cool and wet early summer. Even that late, almost all the campsites were taken. I am glad to see people getting outdoors but I hate crowds.

 

[Wild_Trouter]

If I had to guess, I would say stocked from Poe although who knows. We have definitely caught a decent # of stocked brooks from Poe and a few natives over the years. I have a hard time believing that trickles like Swift and Panther could produce that number on the mainstream. Brookies on Poe seem down. I wonder what Poe was like before the dam?

Panther would definitely have a hard time producing that # of brookies for Penns mainstream. If you've been to Panther, then you know that just upstream from the bridge crossing, the stream starts to get very steep. Not all trout are able to freely move throughout the stream. I almost look at it as two distinct populations there. Below the bridge, the fish are bigger and do wander into Penns. The fish upstream of the bridge and the real steep ascent are the other group. Except for high water events where the fish are blown out into the lower section- I think you have a very low population of brookies in that lower section though they can run in the 8'-10" range on occasion. As for Swift Run, there doesn't seem to be very much in that one anymore the last few times I have fished it. That said, there are other tribs to Penns (Class A, Nat Repro List) that do contribute quite a few fish to the mainstem. Those same places can have nice surprises in them come Fall. You will also get Rainbows that come down from Poe or further up say Spring Mills/Coburn area. They make for a nice surprise once they have been in the stream a while and color up.

 

[Fish Sticks]

A couple of years ago I caught several brook trout in the same stretches the poster mentioned that I believe were stocked fish. They had nice fins and all but Penns isn’t full of 11” and 12” native brook trout. I always suspected someone dumped some excess fish in or a whole bunch of them made their way down from Big Poe.

Might catch a small native now and then but nothing like what I experienced at that time.

Now that PAFB ending their brook trout stocking I guess we will find out won’t we. I think you’ll keep finding those brookies in penns in the coming years 😉. They have panther, Poe, swift, little Weikert and many many more along penns.

 

[Fish Sticks]

If I had to guess, I would say stocked from Poe although who knows. We have definitely caught a decent # of stocked brooks from Poe and a few natives over the years. I have a hard time believing that trickles like Swift and Panther could produce that number on the mainstream. Brookies on Poe seem down. I wonder what Poe was like before the dam?

Some of them could be stocked for sure but I’ve caught nice sized brookies in those small tribs and in penns at the mouth of those small tribs that are smaller than stocked fish too, not just big ones. So the wild native brook trout population is definitely using penns to some extent despite the browns. I catch 4-5” brookies in Penns and the commission usually doesn’t stick around around that size.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Panther would definitely have a hard time producing that # of brookies for Penns mainstream. If you've been to Panther, then you know that just upstream from the bridge crossing, the stream starts to get very steep. Not all trout are able to freely move throughout the stream. I almost look at it as two distinct populations there. Below the bridge, the fish are bigger and do wander into Penns. The fish upstream of the bridge and the real steep ascent are the other group. Except for high water events where the fish are blown out into the lower section- I think you have a very low population of brookies in that lower section though they can run in the 8'-10" range on occasion. As for Swift Run, there doesn't seem to be very much in that one anymore the last few times I have fished it. That said, there are other tribs to Penns (Class A, Nat Repro List) that do contribute quite a few fish to the mainstem. Those same places can have nice surprises in them come Fall. You will also get Rainbows that come down from Poe or further up say Spring Mills/Coburn area. They make for a nice surprise once they have been in the stream a while and color up.

I’d like to see penns shocked a few years after this brook trout stocking cessation. I think an early may survey might surprise some folks as far as the brook trout go based on my experience in penns in certain sections.

 

[KeviR]

But have you ever heard of somebody catching a larger brook trout in Penn's? Like over 15"? I haven't. That section has had a slot limit for several years. Maybe they mostly get killed before they get through the slot? They grow slower than brown trout, so they spend more time in the slot. And according to Bob Bachman, they are at serious risk from spinners with barbed treble hooks due to how they attack prey. (They are more likely to get the hooks into their gills. Plus they are just more aggressive eaters.) So some may be killed unintentionally. Maybe the slot should be different for brook trout, or make brook trout no-kill in this stretch. Plus some tackle restriction, like barbless/single. It would be interesting to see.

 

[Fish Sticks]

But have you ever heard of somebody catching a larger brook trout in Penn's? Like over 15"? I haven't. That section has had a slot limit for several years. Maybe they mostly get killed before they get through the slot? They grow slower than brown trout, so they spend more time in the slot. And according to Bob Bachman, they are at serious risk from spinners with barbed treble hooks due to how they attack prey. (They are more likely to get the hooks into their gills. Plus they are just more aggressive eaters.) So some may be killed unintentionally. Maybe the slot should be different for brook trout, or make brook trout no-kill in this stretch. Plus some tackle restriction, like barbless/single. It would be interesting to see.

A regulation specifically to protect brook trout in this state would make a lot of sense in my opinion from not just a prevent what mortality we can standpoint. But also an angler education standpoint on there importance as a native fish and indicator species.

Problem is Pa fish and Boat can never do that. It’s a slippery slope for them. If they start recognizing brook trout as high conservation need then, what about the state stocking, what about the out of control private stocking, what about areas they protect non native species in. It’s easier for them to point to old creel surveys with methodological holes in them and just say: “ trout is a trout”. NJ, MD, VA, WVU, and many more states have specific wild native brook trout management areas where they are protected and other species are not. They don’t agree with our creek surveys accuracy. They point out when you call their fisheries agency that incidental mortality in stocking locations of some of the largest wild native brook trout is a problem downstream of wild trout management areas too.

 

[silverfox]

But have you ever heard of somebody catching a larger brook trout in Penn's? Like over 15"? I haven't. That section has had a slot limit for several years. Maybe they mostly get killed before they get through the slot? They grow slower than brown trout, so they spend more time in the slot. And according to Bob Bachman, they are at serious risk from spinners with barbed treble hooks due to how they attack prey. (They are more likely to get the hooks into their gills. Plus they are just more aggressive eaters.) So some may be killed unintentionally. Maybe the slot should be different for brook trout, or make brook trout no-kill in this stretch. Plus some tackle restriction, like barbless/single. It would be interesting to see.

Ah, I see you've gotten the "treble hook" speech from Bob too!

This is exactly why I commented on the Slot Limit regulation to suggest it include a brook trout component. As it was approved, it's designed specifically for brown trout. Why it was decided to not even bother addressing brook trout in the reg is beyond me.

Adding a few words to a regulation could go a long way. Again, if for nothing else, education. Even if it's a rare chance brookies would be present in the slot limit reg waters, why not protect them too?

 

[JeffP]

Now that PAFB ending their brook trout stocking I guess we will find out won’t we. I think you’ll keep finding those brookies in penns in the coming years 😉. They have panther, Poe, swift, little Weikert and many many more along penns.

I forgot. I guess Poe no longer is stocked by Brookies.

 

[JeffP]

Panther would definitely have a hard time producing that # of brookies for Penns mainstream. If you've been to Panther, then you know that just upstream from the bridge crossing, the stream starts to get very steep. Not all trout are able to freely move throughout the stream. I almost look at it as two distinct populations there. Below the bridge, the fish are bigger and do wander into Penns. The fish upstream of the bridge and the real steep ascent are the other group. Except for high water events where the fish are blown out into the lower section- I think you have a very low population of brookies in that lower section though they can run in the 8'-10" range on occasion. As for Swift Run, there doesn't seem to be very much in that one anymore the last few times I have fished it. That said, there are other tribs to Penns (Class A, Nat Repro List) that do contribute quite a few fish to the mainstem. Those same places can have nice surprises in them come Fall. You will also get Rainbows that come down from Poe or further up say Spring Mills/Coburn area. They make for a nice surprise once they have been in the stream a while and color up.

\

 

[JeffP]

Panther would definitely have a hard time producing that # of brookies for Penns mainstream. If you've been to Panther, then you know that just upstream from the bridge crossing, the stream starts to get very steep. Not all trout are able to freely move throughout the stream. I almost look at it as two distinct populations there. Below the bridge, the fish are bigger and do wander into Penns. The fish upstream of the bridge and the real steep ascent are the other group. Except for high water events where the fish are blown out into the lower section- I think you have a very low population of brookies in that lower section though they can run in the 8'-10" range on occasion. As for Swift Run, there doesn't seem to be very much in that one anymore the last few times I have fished it. That said, there are other tribs to Penns (Class A, Nat Repro List) that do contribute quite a few fish to the mainstem. Those same places can have nice surprises in them come Fall. You will also get Rainbows that come down from Poe or further up say Spring Mills/Coburn area. They make for a nice surprise once they have been in the stream a while and color up.

We used to go way up Panther many years ago. We caught a decent number but nothing great as I recall. I have briefly checked it out the last few years and not seen much. Swift produced some number in the not too distant past, but has not been great lately.

 

[Mike]

It is not treble hooks per se, it is the hook size that causes the problem ST. Certain lure brands that are produced in sizes appropriate for most Pa brook trout streams have stock treble hooks that are too small for the sublegal trout that are around 4.5-6 inches long give or take. They are aggressive and with some frequency take all three of the hook tines of a single treble hook into their small mouths. All three tines can get caught in the jaws (upper and lower at the same time), effectively tying them together, and because of the remaining very small space to maneuver the tines, it makes the hook difficult to remove from their mouths without damaging the jaws. To avoid this, I break one of the tines off of the treble configuration when fishing a ST stream. The remaining double hook is easy to remove from smaller fish. Alternatively, larger hooks can be utilized and the problem goes away as well because the smaller fish that were engulfing the smaller trebles can’t do so with the next larger size. You don’t catch many of those small fish either with the larger hooks, so that’s good.

Published research testing treble vs single hooks shows that single hook lures are often taken too deeply into vital areas of the rear mouth, such as the vascular rear of the tongue or gill arches, producing significantly higher mortality than trebles, which normally aren’t taken as deeply. Other than what I have described from my experiences with respect to some sub-legal ST and the hook size mismatch, which I have never found addressed in the scientific studies, treble hooks are the way to go. The treble vs single hook argument from anglers typically is based on their logic and not based on the scientific testing, to which they may have little access. In fact, the single hook solution that anglers often propose would have worse outcomes based on the the science.

 

[JeffP]

Panther would definitely have a hard time producing that # of brookies for Penns mainstream. If you've been to Panther, then you know that just upstream from the bridge crossing, the stream starts to get very steep. Not all trout are able to freely move throughout the stream. I almost look at it as two distinct populations there. Below the bridge, the fish are bigger and do wander into Penns. The fish upstream of the bridge and the real steep ascent are the other group. Except for high water events where the fish are blown out into the lower section- I think you have a very low population of brookies in that lower section though they can run in the 8'-10" range on occasion. As for Swift Run, there doesn't seem to be very much in that one anymore the last few times I have fished it. That said, there are other tribs to Penns (Class A, Nat Repro List) that do contribute quite a few fish to the mainstem. Those same places can have nice surprises in them come Fall. You will also get Rainbows that come down from Poe or further up say Spring Mills/Coburn area. They make for a nice surprise once they have been in the stream a while and color up.

 

[JeffP]

A number of the tribs sink and end up more brown trout water. I'm not sure what Pine/Elk looks like these days for brooks. They are a pretty long way from Poe Paddy. Some of the more recent survey on lower tribs like Weikert and Cherry were kind of disappointing. I'm not that familiar with this area or the upper areas. Tribs like Panther and Swift can't offer the easiest access but I guess they do move.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I forgot. I guess Poe no longer is stocked by Brookies.

PFBC Adult Trout Stockings

No brooks stocked in Poe, I checked. I didn’t think state was done phasing out their brook trout there but they are I guess. They are getting rid of the breeder fish around the state so make sense. those fish were almost certainly wild. No secret penns has large wild brook trout, Rick nyles guides there a lot and talks about some of the ones he and is clients pick up during his presentations.