Miners & Rock Run Lycoming County 7/5/08

[salvelinusfontinalis]

It is hard to find the words to describe what I saw @ Rock Run, but im going to try.

Breathtaking, amazing, wonderful, and mystical all come to mind. I have heard from many sources that you will be hard pressed to find a more beautiful stream in PA, I have to agree.

We parked at Miners Run and decided to head upstream to see what trout could be in the icy cold waters. If you havent been up miners run you have to go! Waterfall after waterfall cascades down this very narrow and steep gorge. It was breathtaking. The habitat is so very good and the water was the coldest I felt in awhile. Where are the fish? The PA Fish Comm say from the headwaters down to the Mouth. We didnt even spook any fish.

Regaurdless it was great just to see that scenery.

Next we went down to Rock Run where Miners Run enters it and my Jaw dropped. It is just basically a stream that wore out on gigantic solid slate rock throught its entire length. It is very clear and even with the low water has some tremdous holes and deep deep water. We fished downstream to the waterfall. Amazing! Becareful if you go because the trail narrows right at the water fall and it would be easy to slip and fall of the hill into it. I swear the water depth at the fall had to be 30 feet deep. I had a bugger on and 2 split shots and it took 18 seconds to hit the bottom. :-o

As far as fish...this stream is still polluted with trout from previous stockings. I have a feeling with low water and the cystal clear conditions they are very very hard to catch. We saw about 60 trout this day and only landed 2 stocker brookies. Few fish were rising.

We drove up to the big waterfall and saw tons of people enjoying the deep and cold water. It was funny watching kids use the water shut has a slide on an intertube. A DCNR fellow came down and we chatted with him. He told us that if we go up Rock Run road to where it crosses Rock Run and fish upstream has the best and fairly excellent fishing. Possibily a place to go next time. We were just so enamored by this area as a whole we wasted alot of time. We are even considering camping there for first day next year. I saw on a previous thread people were talking about if you could still camp there. Tons and tons of people were. SO id say yes you can. What a stream and what an area. If you never been you better go! Pics to come soon but here are a few professional ones of the area.

rock Run fall

rock run

miners run

miners Run 2

 

[MKern]

sal,

Glad to hear you had a good time.
Miner's would probably have fish, but with the low population of wild brookies in rock run never replenish the ones lost in miner's. Plus thos huge waterfalls make it hard for fish to swim up to spawn. I have also never seen fish in there.

Above where the road crosses is okay, but you have to go about a mile to get into decent fish population, but nothing spectacular.

Camping can be done, but only at approved campsites (some have been eliminated) and you have to have a permit. I couldn't imagine fishing there on the first day. There are probably more people there for the ammount of water that flows through the gorge than anywhere else in the state. However, rock run recieves about 6 stockings per year, so there is a constant fish population for a majority of the year.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

A side note we did stop by pleasent stream but the water looked a bit to low to fish it enjoyably.

MKern,

I also read that the population of fish in Rock is low. I wonder why. Lots of great habitat and the water depth and temperture was very cool for this time of year. Acid Rain effects maybe or the constant stockings? Very odd....it looked like it had everything a trout stream should have. As far as Miners I can see where the numerous 20-30 ft waterfalls would effect spawning fish. I wonder if farther up has any fish? Either way the area was beautiful and made an otherwise troutless day very very fun.

 

[MKern]

Miner's may have trout in it's upper reaches, but probably nothing to write home about.

Pleasant Stream is similar to Rock Run in the fact that they over stock it and it recieves a ton of pressure from those hook and cook fishermen who like to be in the wilderness when they bag their limit. I'm sure the population of meninite people who live along the stream and use nets doesn't help either. Pleasant is class a at the upper reaches, but still isn't that good in my oppinion.

I think, in addition to what you mentioned, another reason Rock Run doesn't have a high wild trout population is the lack od insects and baitfish. But I think the biggest reason is probably the 10,000 fish that get put in there every year and the 10,000 people who fish it. I know I've mentioned it before, but I was once hiking along the stream (mistakenly right after they stocked) and a guy caught a 6" native, then looked at me and said, "why in the world would they stock this goofy-looking little fish," then chucked it on the bank. I proceded to tell him that it was a native brook trout and then he said to me,after a long pause, "No they only stock this stream." He looked so puzzled my the word "native" --- he had no idea what was going on.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

I think i just threw up in my mouth a little reading that. *shakes my shame finger at that guy*
Well thanks for your insight and replies Mkern :-D

 

[vcregular]

I've been up thru Rock Run pretty far, and I agree that it is perhaps the most beautiful stream in the state. I also agree with MKern, that it is sterile. I just don't think there is much if any food in it.

From what I hear the state has drastically cut back on the number of camp sites along the stream, which is a result of enforcing the primitive nature of the McIntyre Wilderness Area. I think the only place to camp now - - legally - - is up near where Yellow Dog Road is?? In fact I had some friends up there this past weekend, and they were lucky, and got the site. They called the first day you could reserve for the holiday weekend - - which was three months ago.

 

[troutbert]

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:

We parked at Miners Run and decided to head upstream to see what trout could be in the icy cold waters. If you havent been up miners run you have to go! Waterfall after waterfall cascades down this very narrow and steep gorge. It was breathtaking. The habitat is so very good and the water was the coldest I felt in awhile. Where are the fish? The PA Fish Comm say from the headwaters down to the Mouth. We didnt even spook any fish.

Is Miners Run on the reproduction list? I thought that it was dead from mine drainage. If you continue up the road that parallels Miners Run you come to an area that was mined back in the day and the creek drains right out of there.

On another note, if you follow that road along Miners Run the whole up to the top of the mountain, to where it ends, and then walk past the gate about a half mile or so, you come to a stunning overlook over the Lycoming Creek valley. It's very much worth the time to check out if you are in the area.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Next time im up there ill check out that overlook. Thanks for the info. No Miners is on the natural reproduction list and judging by the clean flows....id say free of mine acid drainage.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

enjoying the water

lower fall

lower fall of rock run again

rock run

rock run2

miners run atop one of the falls

gorgous

the beautiful.........and the ugly 🙂

miners run

We did stop by Grays Run also. There is a bit of confusion between wether this is selective Harvest or C&R. There are two sets of signs out there lol. Anyways it seemed that the stream may have been re-routed by something upstream. And old stream channel still exists and where the stream is now there are newly exposed roots going across the stream chennel. Very very odd. I caught 1 small brookie on a sulphur pattern.

grays run

grays run2

We did see about 20 grouse by the road. Tried to take a pic of them ....those buggers are fast. Heres one in the pic.

Grouse

 

[troutbert]

Sal,

Thanks for the info that Miners Run is on the reproduction list. That's good news. But if neither you nor Mkern caught any fish, there makes me wonder. Usually if there are brookies present, you can catch them or at least get some bumps or follows.

Regarding the channel change on Grays Run. A prof at Bucknell told me they did some studies on this stream and they regarded this a natural channel avulsion. An avulsion just means jumping to a another location in the floodplain. Perfectly normal. It happens during big floods. Often a tree will get carried down by the flood, get jammed somewhere in the channel. Then the cobble that is being rolled down the channel by the high flows deposits behind the obstruction, often filling the channel right up near bankful. Then all that water coming down goes out over the banks and across the floodplain. At first it may be flowing right across the level top of the floodplain, which looks pretty unusual. But after a while it will carve a new channel. In other cases, the water will flow into what had been a secondary or flood channel, converting that to the new main channel, and making the previous main channel a secondary or flood channel.
It's not real unusual. I've seen it several times after big floods.

It's a normal process, but most people don't realize it. So it's very common for people to "fix" it by putting the channel "back where it belongs."

And that is usually a mistake. Unless property is threatened by the channel change, it is usually best for the stream habitat to leave it alone.

 

[MKern]

I saw the same thing of the creek rerouting. I think it is just a natural process of a lot of streams; usually caused by flood like conditions. I have seen similar things on other streams, but a few years after a shift has been made, and not to the same extent.

Gray's is extremely clear this time of year, and is clear most of the year -- crystal!

If you travel to where you cross a cement bridge and there is a parking area off to the right, that is the bottom of the C & R area. The upper limits are clearly marked by the club. A ton of the lower section is on private water.

Personally I hate Gray's and fish it once a year and then remember why I only fish it once: you need waders to cross but you get extremely hot, even in April; the stream is extremely tight and need a powerful rod to shoot your line, but is too close for a rod over 7'; the fish are extremely spooky and aren't very pretty.

 

[MKern]

troutbert,

Thanks for the insight on stream shift. I always thought that was a reason, but never heard from anyone "official."

I would like to add, that not only didn't I catch any fish in Miner's, but didn't even see a dart.

I really think the high waterfalls limit spawning and the fish that lived above them (that could replenish the pools below the falls, swept away eggs) have all been preyed upon by humans and other predators, and low water surely doesn't help; and that stream doesn't have very much to begin with.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Troutbert,

Ill second the notion of thanking you for your insight. That is very interesting and is very possible that this is what happened at Grays Run. I wouldnt change the stream channel back either. The over hanging tree roots and other structure made for some good fish habitat. Though it did look very odd. The only question that I have is wouldnt, while the water was cutting a new stream channel, be dwindling downstream. I would think if the diversion was long enough that the "regular creek channel" downstream of the diversion could go quite sometime with out water. Causing fish to die or even get trapped. If when the water flowing to point A to point X goes around B,C and D section and meets the stream channel back at point E those sections would be threatened. If the fish dont retreat with the flowing water they could get trapped and die?

Anyways again I loved the info. Thank You.

Mkern,

Grays was right up my alley. I fish small streams with full flex rods. Mines a 7 footer and i fish even more bushy streams than Grays on a regular basis. Its all up to your style and how much you practice with what equipment. No right or wrong answer here just what you prefer.

I will say that those fish are spooky and the low water most are hiding quite good right now. Hard to sneak up on any of these trout or even letting you leader settle on the waters surface without spooking them.

I didnt see a dart or a spooked fish in Miners either. Anyways tight lines you two! :-D

 

[tomgamber]

Now thats a pretty stream...good pics Sal.

 

[Mariner]

Killer report--especially with the grouse action too.

 

[troutbert]

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:
Troutbert,

Ill second the notion of thanking you for your insight. That is very interesting and is very possible that this is what happened at Grays Run. I wouldnt change the stream channel back either. The over hanging tree roots and other structure made for some good fish habitat. Though it did look very odd. The only question that I have is wouldnt, while the water was cutting a new stream channel, be dwindling downstream. I would think if the diversion was long enough that the "regular creek channel" downstream of the diversion could go quite sometime with out water. Causing fish to die or even get trapped. If when the water flowing to point A to point X goes around B,C and D section and meets the stream channel back at point E those sections would be threatened. If the fish dont retreat with the flowing water they could get trapped and die?

Yes, when the stream avulses, or jumps, into a new channel, the old channel may get de-watered and some trout and bugs may take a hit. What I've usually seen is that there is still some water going down the old channel, that the cutoff is usually not complete, so there is usually some water flowing down the old main channel, now secondary channel.

But I don't doubt at all, that some fish and bugs may die during channel avulsions. But if a stream/floodplain system is in a natural condition, i.e. just a stream flowing through a forested floodplain, and people aren't messing it with it, that is the situation where you are going to get the very best possible habitat and that will lead to high trout populations over the long haul.

Downed trees, logjams, undercut banks, leaning trees, channel splits and rejoinings are typical of normal forested floodplain streams. It's rare to find such places, but when you do, the habitat can often be just amazing. One pool right after another, with good overhead cover provided by the undercut banks and large woody debris.

Avulsions have a number of benefits to stream habitat. This stuff is a little complicated but here goes. The main limiting factor is pool habitat. You all have fished long sections of stream that are very shallow, lacking pools. This is what some of us call "walk-past water." When you're fishing, you just walk past and you keep walking until you find some decent holding water.

Avulsions, i.e. channel jumping or channel splitting, leads to pool formation in these ways. When channels split, the run parallel for a ways, then they rejoin. And when they rejoin, there is commonly a confluence pool at the junction. That's not a coincidence. You see the same thing where tributaries come in. It has to do with the vectors of the combining flows. Where currents converge, the energy of the stream is increased, and it carves down into the streambed sediment and forms a pool.

Also, when streams have multiple channels in some places, rather than just a single, monolithic channel, it is more likely that large woody debris will "stick" i.e. get lodged in the channel. And we all know that large woody debris is important to pool formation and overhead cover. Many streams have single, monolithic channels that were often man-made, and straightened to boot. In these channels, downed trees often just get swept downstream rather than sticking and creating habitat. Look around, you'll see this. Streams that have a complex structure, with multiple channels and meanders etc. tend to have more large woody debris, and better pools habitat.

Single monolithic channels often have a tendency to downcut, which is called channel incision in the literature. That's a bad thing because flood flows don't go out over the floodplain as in a normal system. They stay in the channel and all that flow creates massive bank erosion, leaving a wide channel with a shallow trickle flowing across the stream bed when the flow returns to normal. Thats a bad thing.

When there are multiple channels, with large woody debris, the fricition is increased, there are more obstructions, and more water gets forced out of the channel and flowing across the floodplain in high flow situations, as nature intended.

A channel avulsion often counter-acts channel incision. The blockage creates deposition in the channel behind the blockage. And the water is then diverted across the top of the floodplain. So the stream is "reset" at a higher elevation, clear up on top of the floodplain.

The old main channel, now a secondary channel, will begin to fill in. At normal flows it will have just a little water flowing or in some cases nearly none. But during floods, water will be flowing in this channel also. But it's no longer the main flow, it's away from the main channel so it carries the slower flood flows. And the sediment rich flood flows deposit in this low channel and gradually begin filling it in. So it's elevation is slowly raised.

These abandoned or "relic"channels also commonly form wetlands, at their former poolls, or oxbows. And these are often breeding areas for amphibians. And the secondary channels, with their fine deposits, often support herbaceous plants there are different than the plant life that is found on higher floodplain surface. Not that we care about all the at biodiversity stuff, hee hee....

BTW, if you go back to Grays Run, fish the section BELOW the bridge. Start at the lower state forest boundary and fish up to the bridge. You will see a lot of the features I described above. Channel splits, large woody debris, and tremendous pools and cover for such a small stream. The habitat is much better here than upstream from the bridge. That's because of periodic chanelizations in the section above the bridge. I know of at least 2 cases when there were bulldozers in there. There was a big controversy over this so maybe they've left it alone in recent years. And so maybe the habitat is recovering.

I think in many cases channel avulsions are part of a natural restoration process. I hope you enjoy all that. Sometimes I type faster than I think.... :-D

But look for some of this stuff when you're out on forested streams. It's dang interesting.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

troutbert,

again ty for your info and insights on this. That is very interesting.

here are a few more pics of miners run that spectorfly took on his camera phone. dang that thing takes good pics for a camera phone!

fall

falls

me beside a waterfall

me fishin

 

[salmonoid]

Grays Run was Selective Harvest; the PFBC did away with some of the "oddball" designations a few years back, to streamline regulations. If I recall correctly, when I fished it, there were only a handful (maybe two?) streams that were "Selective Harvest". I caught a few wild browns and natives, and one stocked brook trout. A few were caught directly upstream from the cement bridge, and then we camped further upstream, where there's a bridge across to cabins, and caught the bulk of fish up there.

 

[henrydavid]

I had the opportunity to fish Rock Run twice, both times I had very good luck above the bridge. If I remember correctly there were mile markers on certain signs all the way up Rock Run Road, the bridge is somewhere around the 10 mile mark, and there were campsites there, it's good to know you can still camp there, where would one get the permit?

We also hiked down at around the 5 mile mark, beautiful water there as well, I caught a beautiful native trout in that stretch.

Is it possible there are certain stretches of that stream that do support aquatic life (food) or is the entire stream devout of any such "trout food".

 

[MKern]

henrydavid,

I think those mile markers you are refering to are campsite numbers.
And only a few of those campsites are still able to be camped at. To recieve a permit to camp, I think you just contact DEP with what nights (I believe there is a max number of nights you can stay too) and the number of the site you wish to stay at.

There is food in the stream, just not a lot of it. There is a fair midge population, but as far as huge mayfly hatches, there really isn't anything consistant. There used to be mines at the source.