Kish Creek, Mifflin County 7/7-7/8

[jifigz]

I got out on Kish for about 2 hours and 45 minutes total in the two days. On 7/7 I fished from about 8:15 till about dark. I slammed a nice wild brown about 15" and fat and one smaller left over stockie bow. This section is unstocked so the rainbow came up or downstream. Both fish are a weenie. This was farther down the stream and the water temp was 68° which is basically the cutoff for me doing C&R fishing.

The next day (7/8) I fished from about 2-4 pm. I fished much farther upstream where the water is smaller and much shallower. I attempted to bring the fish up with ant and beetle dry flies. I couldn't get any takers so I switched to nymph a nice riffle. I picked up a standard stockie bow immediately on a hot pink San Juan. I then picked up a small wild bow on the same fly. It was about 5 inches or so. The water up there was 66°. I then moved down stream a bit where the stream is bigger. I hooked one more stockie bow that through my hook. This is below a good source of cold water (a small limestoner that is always cold) and the water was 62° about a half mile below this stream confluence. I then moved into a small section of the stream that was split by an island. A beautiful pocket underneath an overhanging tree was prime water. I tossed my nymph in a few times and, without feeling or noticing anything, felt the need to set the hook. I set the hook and thought that I was stuck. Well, it started moving and I watched the fish quickly dart in and then down stream into some skinny water with another nice pocket. It lasted about 5 seconds but could easily see the wild brown about 18". I put some pressure on him with my 7.5 foot fiberglass 4 weight but the hook popped loose. I hated losing that one but hey, it happens. All in all a fun day and I'm so happy to see the streams flowing good and staying cool. This is usually my smallie fishing but it has been awful so I'm glad our trout streams are in great shape..maybe a few pics will follow..I can't wait to get out again..

 

[jifigz]

Notice that small bow in these pics. I'm starting to catch more and more of these in many of the streams I fish yet many deny the fact that rainbows are reproducing in our streams..

 

[fritz]

Like that little bow. I still haven’t made it up that way. Crept for a Bighorn River trip in April I haven’t made it past York, Cumberland and Dauphin Counties.

 

[Swattie87]

Nice Brown. And yes, that second Bow certainly looks like a wild fish. Kish is a high probability spot I think for Rainbow natural reproduction...It gets a good bit of them stocked into it and is clearly more than capable of holding fish over. Only makes sense that a few of them have figured it out. I suspect if Kish were to be shocked it would turn up some YOY Bows.

 

[jifigz]

Swattie87 wrote:
Nice Brown. And yes, that second Bow certainly looks like a wild fish. Kish is a high probability spot I think for Rainbow natural reproduction...It gets a good bit of them stocked into it and is clearly more than capable of holding fish over. Only makes sense that a few of them have figured it out. I suspect if Kish were to be shocked it would turn up some YOY Bows.

Swattie, no doubt about it. I've also turned little bows like that up in Buck Run (a trib of Kish) and Musser Run (a stream that flows directly into the Juniata.) Musser has also only historically been stocked with browns, too. It was recently removed from the stocking list and is now deemed Class A. I caught the bow after the stocking of browns had ceased.

 

[krs]

Pretty cool to see wild rainbows.

 

[IdratherbePhishing]

I have noticed the same. I was there Sunday and caught some small bows I thought were wild. And I fished the same area of which you speak and fished the same hole with the tree near the island. I then moved down into the narrows and nymphed up a really pretty 19 inch brown.

 

[drakeking412]

I'm looking hard for some wild bows so maybe I'll make the trip that a ways sometime. Seems like a nice stream to fish no matter what, thanks for the report!

 

[jifigz]

If you're specifically looking for populations of wild bows to catch then this is definitely not the place to go. Certain CV streams and a couple in Northwest PA have wild bows, however. I would call this a marginal population that may or may not be expanding..they are definitely overshadowed by browns and nearly every rainbow in this stream is a stockie..

 

[salmonoid]

Didn't one of the local sportsmen clubs stock fingerling rainbows in Kish? I caught one or two in Honey already and think I remember about them running up Tea as well.

 

[jifigz]

salmonoid wrote:
Didn't one of the local sportsmen clubs stock fingerling rainbows in Kish? I caught one or two in Honey already and think I remember about them running up Tea as well.

It's always a possibility I suppose, but how do you hear about such things?

That doesn't explain me finding them in Buck Run many years ago (a Kish trib) unless they were stocked by the pfbc or a club back then and it also doesn't explain Musser Run. I fully believe that they are reproducing in many streams but are overly suppressed by the thriving browns. Let's just hope the rainbows never displace our brookies like in the south..

 

[drakeking412]

Ok thanks for the info. So far I haven't been able to pinpoint any wild rainbow streams except in the Laurel highlands area and they're mostly private it seems. I'll have to explore ANF maybe to find one instead. Also interesting to know about bows displacing brookies, I'd never heard about that

 

[jifigz]

drakeking412 wrote:
Also interesting to know about bows displacing brookies, I'd never heard about that

In the smokies of North Carolina and Tennessee rainbows have displaced and overtaken brookies in many streams. Around here in PA not so much. Brookies still hold their own. Obviously the occasional but brown turns up in those small mountain freestoners though.

 

[Prospector]

About 5 years ago Mike posted some great information about the reason we see very few wild rainbows in PA. I included the link to it below. If Wild RT are showing up in the Kish, these conditions must exist on some stretches to get proper egg development and incubation.

http://www.paflyfish.com/forums/Open-Forums/Paflyfish-General-Forum/Rainbow-trout--sensitivity-limits-reproductive-success-in-Pa-adult-survival/2,34327,503718.html#forumpost503718

The link is broken, here is what it said.

The subjects of limited RT reproduction in Pa and temperature sensitivity come up periodically here. Yesterday, I happened to be doing some research and stumbled across two scientific publications that refreshed my memory. Here is the long and short of it:

Primary limits on reproduction: Water temps that are too warm (higher than 56 deg F) or too cold (42 deg F or lower) limit or prevent reproductive success, despite the fact that RT adults survive quite well at higher temps. These temps that affect reproductive success fall well within the range of typical Pa freestone temps, but not limestoner temps near their source. Eggs will not develop normally in the fish if constant water temps of 56 deg F or higher are encountered. Temps not exceeding 54 deg F are preferable for a period of at least 6 months prior to spawning. How many streams in Pa do not exceed 54 deg F during the summer? Likewise, excessive losses of eggs occur during incubation in the redds if temps fall below 42 deg F. Think about Pa winters, which explains why fall spawning of Pa rainbows is not a good strategy.

This does not necessarily explain two streams in the Allegheny drainage, but to my knowledge those are the only two freestone exceptions with substantial multiple year classes of fish that have been found in Pa. and I don't have enough knowledge of those to express an opinion as to the local effects that allow them to be exceptions. Additionally, I don't know whether or not they still support wild RT pops. I think, however, that the first paragraph above provides good guidance with respect to what the problem probably is with RT reproduction in Pa.

Warm RT fisheries: As for adult RT survival and fishing, one study of a formerly very successful fishery in which water temps over the years gradually increased due to urbanization revealed that water temps that exceeded 68 deg F resulted in substantially more mortality than did the C&R fishing that was occurring over those fish during those warmer water temp periods. The fishery declined. So water temperatures alone, just like the ones we see annually below Blue Marsh Dam during the summer in the Tully DH Area, were enough to cause considerable mortality.

 

[jifigz]

So how do thriving populations of bows show up in Big Spring and in Trindle Spring? Both of those streams are definitely not freestone streams. All I knownis I've also caught a wild rainbow out of upper Spring Creek before as well. The guys at Flyfisher's thought that I was crazy when I told them. They exist around here and I think they are slowly spreading. Think of it like Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park. Life will find a way.

 

[pcray1231]

Yeah, the streams in NW PA don't get super warm, but they go higher than 56 F in summer and lower than 42 in W. As do most of the freestone streams in the smokies where wild rainbows are the dominant species.

It's possible that there are spring seeps that stay more constant, that happen to be near gravel beds.

 

[sarce]

I'm confused why Mike seems to imply that limestone streams are less likely to stay below 54 degrees than freestone streams, isn't it the other way around? And given that most of PA's wild rainbows are in limestone streams, that also seems opposite of his analysis.

jifigz, definitely are wild rainbows in upper spring. I fished that area a lot in college and probably caught one small rainbow per trip. Not all were small though.

 

[SteveG]

Jifigz, I think you misread the info (which was worded somewhat confusedly). Big Spring, Trindle, etc have temps that stay well within the required perimeters during the period of times necessary for successful spawn.

Another thing to consider regarding that 6-month time frame, is that generally rainbow trout are springtime spawners... So, while the chances might be low, it's definitely possible for rainbow trout to spawn on a freestone stream in PA during the Spring.

Further complicating things, are the fact that in limestone streams they will sometimes spawn in the Fall, as witnessed on Big Spring. I've caught young rainbows with parr markings on a number of streams over the years that are normally just wild browns or brookies. The one common factor between all of them has been that there is a limestone tributary somewhere in the system, and nothing to impede travel to and from it.

 

[Swattie87]

I think they key to Mike's older post is WHEN the Rainbows spawn:

Assuming everything in that post is accurate, which I am, given its source, look at it this way. If the Rainbows spawn in the Spring, they should see conditions across PA relatively conducive to good survival, freestone or limestone: Water temps below 54 deg for the 6 months prior to the spawn to aid in egg development within the parent fish. This would be roughly October to March I think...I think temps generally over this time period, anywhere in PA, would be below 54 for the vast majority of this time. Then, temps 42 or above, after the fish have spawned and the eggs are on the redds. Assuming the fish would begin to spawn at a certain temp/time, it's reasonably plausible to have temps regularly above 42 after the fish Spawn in the Spring, again freestone or limestone...figuring late March/early April-ish.

I think the historic thought for PA stocked Bow strains is that they attempt to spawn in the Fall, based on hatchery engineering/conditioning...Which would set things up backwards for the temperature ranges they need to develop healthy eggs in the parent fish, and then have them survive on the redds after spawning. (Too hot during egg development over the Summer, and too cold on the redds after the spawn over the Winter.)

Couple questions:

1. Do the wild Bows in the Smokies spawn in the Fall or Spring? (I honestly don't know.)

2. Do we know if the well established wild Bows in Big Spring, or the certain system in the Allegheny drainage spawn in the Fall or Spring?

Edit: Fun discussion, but FWIW, I'm not in favor of attempting to aid in Rainbow reproduction across PA. I'll admit, they're a neat novelty in the couple places you can find them in good numbers, but I don't want to see any further encroachment on Brook Trout in our forested freestoners, and given the choice between wild Bows or Browns, I'd prefer Browns.

 

[SteveG]

On Big Spring they will spawn in the Fall or Spring.