Harvey leader question

Flydoc1

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It's my understanding that the Harvey dry fly leader formula calls for 18-20 inch sections of 0.15, 0.13, 0X and 2X followed by a "transition section" of 3X. The remaining sections taper down to the tippet determined by the selected tippet size. I've been told that the section of 3X can vary between 12-15 inches depending on how well the leader is turning over the particular fly being used. My question is "what influences how long the transition section should be?" Does a longer section turn over a larger fly or a smaller fly better. When should I tend to use a shorter 3X section and when should I use a longer section?
 
Dear Flydoc1,

I'm going to have to look for my Harvey leader book that I got with a leader tying kit from Flyfisher's Paradise almost 40 years ago. I can tell you that 0.15 is not the starting point for the butt section. Everything was tied with Maxima Chameleon down to the last 30". It's a very stiff material and using it makes the leader naturally unfold. From memory, it was 30" of .019 Maxima Chameleon, 18" of .017, 12 inches of .015, all Chameleon. You then finished out the leader with Cortland Nylorfi tippet which isn't made anymore. You can step down .002 or .003 in diameter between the lighter sections to get to a 9 foot or so leader.

The real issue today is that # test and tippet diameter is completely arbitrary and no longer correlates to the old formula.

I'll look for the booklet and post some formulae, but it will probably be over the weekend.

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

On a side note, this is really a job for old board member Maxima 12!
 
I've been told that the section of 3X can vary between 12-15 inches depending on how well the leader is turning over the particular fly being used. My question is "what influences how long the transition section should be?" Does a longer section turn over a larger fly or a smaller fly better. When should I tend to use a shorter 3X section and when should I use a longer section?
My advice would be to not get caught up in worrying about a couple of inches here or there. But yes, you may need to shorten some of the finer sections to get a large or bushy fly to turn over. if you are having this problem and your selected tippet size is 5x or smaller you selected poorly.
 
First to answer your question, shortening the section would "stiffen" up the leader for better turnover with a larger fly.

What is your source for this particular piece of information? Like shortrod said, worrying about an inch or 2 one way or the other isn't going to revolutionize anything regards to getting your fly out there.....personally when I make any kind of leader adjustment for fly size I adjust the tippet, and it is usually take or add 10 - 12 inches. It also has to be a pretty big swing in fly size to have to do that, like going from a size 12 royal wulff to an 18 BWO. If I want to make a leader longer or shorter for different presentations I adjust at the butt end, again we are talking making adjustments in the 10 inch plus or minus range. An inch or 2 isn't going to move the needle that much.
 
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I use a lot of Harvey leaders and my best advice would be to mess around with it until you find what suits your cast and situation. That’s the real beauty of hand tied leaders, that they’re damn near infinitely customizable.

Keep that pouch of various Maxima, super strong nylon and fluorocarbon monos handy in your bag. Hell, I rebuilt one standing in the middle of the river this past week and immediately went from no takers to hooking 4 nice wild browns. My primary drivers for the rebuild were the need to get better turnover and accurate casts in the 40-45’ range with a 10-15 mph pesky downstream breeze while accommodating the change to a smaller fly and addition of a 6x section because the water was lower and more clear than expected. To do this, I shortened up the 2x and 3x sections by about 6” each, shortened my previous terminal 5x fluoro section by about 10” and then added about 20” of 6x fluoro.

Once you tinker with them for a bit you’ll get better at figuring out quickly what needs to be done to get your desired result
 
Flydoc1:

George Harvey's objective with his leader formula was primarily drag reduction so he could use heavier tippets to protect the fish. This drag reduction was achieved by virtue of gentle "S" curves formed in the leader when delivered.

He experimented with all hard nylon and all soft nylon when it became available and determined that a combination of the two was the answer. His leader also had a lighter butt section that was .015 (sorry Tim 😉).

He did tie a 10-inch "attachment" section of leader material to his fly line that was .017, but he DIDN'T count that as part of his leader.

You were close in your assumptions, but most of the adjustments George Harvey made to tweak the performance of his leaders depending on fly size, was in the LAST hard nylon section that was .009 (2X). This section was either shortened or replaced with soft nylon and the soft nylon sections to the tippet adjusted accordingly.

With that in mind, approximation, speculation and assumptions are great, but sometime you just have to go to the source if you want the real answer...

From his 1985 book, "Techniques of Trout Fishing and Fly Tying:"
"I start with a small piece of hard nylon (about ten inches) tied to the line with a nail knot. This makes a smoother juncture between the line and leader. I don't count this as part of the leader. My basic leaders are tied with twenty-inch sections of hard nylon in the following sizes: .015, .013, .011 and .009. A supply of these basic leaders are carried at all times and are then adjusted with soft nylon as dictated by the size of the fly I am using.
The following lengths of soft nylon are approximate because the air resistance and size of the fly being used determine the actual length. When I taper to .007 (4X), I cut off the .009 hard nylon and add soft nylon in the following lengths: 12 to 15" of .009 (2X), 18 inches of .008 (3X) and 22 inches to 28 inches of .007 (4X). This gives me a leader of approximately 9-1/2 feet.
When I go to .006 (5X), I cut off about half of the .009 (2X) hard nylon and add 12 inches to 15 inches of .008 (3X), 18 inches of .007 (4X), and 22 inches to 30 inches of .006 (5X). This leader will be approximately 10-1/2 feet. If you want to shorten the leader, take several inches off the .015, .013 and .011.
I have been using this leader formula for over thirty years and rarely use tippets smaller than .006 (5X) and most of the time I can take trout on leaders tapered to .008 (3X) or .007 (4X)."

FWIW - NO tippet material brands are mentioned in the book. When George developed his leader formula in the 1950's, "Mason's" was a popular brand of hard nylon. Garcia Platyl was one manufacturer of soft nylon at that time. I'm not so sure about other available soft nylon leader material.

Not knowing George, but knowing that generation of anglers very well, I can almost guarantee he used a micrometer so he KNEW the diameter of the material was what he wanted, not what was printed on the spool.

I hope this helps!!
 
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Here is the leader formulas I have



  • Leader Formulas






  • Original hard Butt
  • 4X 5X
  • .017 - 10" Stiff .017 - 10" Stiff
  • .015 - 18" Stiff .015 - 18" Stiff
  • .013 - 18" Stiff .013 - 18" Stiff
  • .012 - 18" Stiff .011 - 18" Stiff
  • .010 - 18" Stiff .009 - 18" Stiff
  • .009 - 12" Soft .008 - 12" Soft
  • .008 - 18" Soft .007 - 18" Soft
  • .007 - 24" Soft .006 - 24" Soft

  • Orginal Soft Butt
  • 4X 5X
  • .017 - 10" Soft .017 - 10" Soft
  • .015 - 18" Soft .015 - 18" Soft
  • .013 - 18" Soft .013 - 18" Soft
  • .012 - 18" Soft .011 - 18" Soft
  • .010 - 18" Soft .009 - 18" Soft
  • .009 - 12" Soft .008 - 12" Soft
  • .008 - 18" Soft .007 - 18" Soft
  • .007 - 24" Soft .006 - 24" Soft

  • New Formula
  • 4X 5X
  • .015 - 18" Soft .015 - 18" Soft
  • .013 - 18" Soft .013 - 18" Soft
  • .011 - 18" Soft .011 - 18" Soft
  • .009 - 18" Soft .009 - 18" Soft
  • .008 - 15" Soft .007 - 15" Soft
  • .007 - 36" Soft .006 - 36" Soft
 
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