Big Spring, Cumberland Co., 3/29-3/30/2009

Dances_With_Brookies

Dances_With_Brookies

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Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
91
I fished Big Spring the last couple days in the lower project water with excellent success. Water was low and clear. As you are already aware, the habitat in the lower project area has improved quite a bit. It is almost like bass fishing down there as you really have to send your flies into the cover. Basically, if you see a spot that you think will hold a fish-swing your fly under there. The fish are extremely skittish and less forgiving then those found in the Ditch. It was a subsurface affair all the way with rootbeer eztaz lead eye wooly buggers, flashback scuds, and glo-balls being the ticket. I really came away impressed by the density of the fish down there. There were times where I would hook a fish under some cover only to watch five or six other fish take off from the same spot like missiles. I caught close to fifteen fish with the majority being rainbows. I was however, pleasantly surprised to catch quite a few brookies. I'm not sure whether they originated from earlier fingerling stockings or whether they were wild, though by all appearances I would argue that they were in fact wild. Look at the pictures and judge for yourself. In addition, I broke off two monster browns that were pushing 24" plus, but that is what you get when you are too lazy to switch from 6x to a heavier tippet.


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DWB,
Nice report. I hit Big Spring this week and also did well although I hit 'em on top (funny, since I'm a nymph and streamer guy) on stoneflies. I'm fairly certain that all the brookies I caught were wild (one was probably 11"). It's tough to say from your photos but the brookies stocked in BSC were fin clipped. Either the adipose was clipped if stocked as an adult, or one of the ventral fins were clipped if stocked as a fingerling. It may have been the other way around but I think I have it right. Clearly the fish you got were not adult stockies from below the reg section. All the brookies I got this week, and throughout 2008, were nicely colored and had both ventral fins and adipose. This combined with the spawning I saw late last year have me convinced that virtually all the brookies in the Heritage section are now wild fish. Studies in the last few years by the PFBC have documented very little survival of stocked brook trout in BSC.

BTW: I too have an old Orvis Rocky Mountain fly reel. I'm sure it is at least 20 years old and has held up very well. I've had to repair the reel seat but otherwise it's been flawless.
 
Nice report Dances. I love the brookies most but big spring bows are always so darn fat ;-)

I love this stream. Everytime i go fish there i want to move to that county. I would love to see more stream restoration through the heritage section. in 2005 the kilograms per hectre of rainbow trout was 120 below the ditch to the thomasville dam. in 2007 100 lbs per acre of fish (between all 3 species) were 300 meters below the ditch.
As gene says, spring creek habitat is differnt than that of a freestone stream. Problems in this area is not gettings the aquatic vegetation that the stream is accustom too.
As far as below the Thomasville dam: in 2007 there was 100 pounds per acre of fish between all 3 species. Thats better than gold medal water in colorado. It would be interesting to see what it could be if the habitat was better and the hatches came back in full force.
 
The fish are extremely skittish and less forgiving then those found in the Ditch
Click to expand...

Great. Just what I needed to hear. My total fish count above the old mill dam after all these years is 0. Yes, 0.
 
I'm glad some folks are diwcovering what we locals have known for years. In ther first 300 meeters ther are 240 kilogeams of beook trot per acre and 125 pouns of rainbows. In the next reach down stream ther are 125 kilograms of brook trout per hectare and more than that for rainbows. As far as thr new jersey strain of hatrchery brook trout. we see little of them because the brooks stocked by fc didn't how up in electrosghocking. There were very few big spering brookies left but some always spaw3ned at the headwaters even during the time of the hatchery. There was also a vibert box planing od labrador second generatin brookies bit the big ones dfown stream where probably wild. If you want to see brook trout spawning you need to come in the winter and look into the redds at the headwaters. If you haven't visited Big Sprihng lately be sure to dive past the hatchery--no more raceways----no more conical clarfier.
 
Your success at Big Spring is incredible. I have two questions:

1. How come the date on the first photo is 1/13/08 while all others are dated 1/1/08?

2. How come your report of 10/29/08 on Big Spring (see page 6) has attached the same 1/13/08 photo?

I'm confused?
 
when you remove the batteries from a camera, a lot of times it resets all the settings, like the date. I'm guessing he got confused on that brookie picture and reposted it (may have his pictures sorted on his comp as to which stream they were caught in) Date says 1/1/08 on pictures is probably from a reset, and the duplicated photo is just that, a mistake.

Just my observations...
 
Maybe. I simply know that I frequent Big Spring quite often. I am an above average fly fisherman and I have landed my fair share of trout, both large and small, from Big Spring. However, I do not continually experience nor am I aware of anyone who does continually experience repeated 10+ fish days on streams like Big Spring (especially outside of the ditch) and the Letort. These fishermen are well known and respected fly fisherman and they find this level of skill incredible, as well.

While I recognize the date thing can be explained, the grass simply appears too green and too lush for this time of year. Then, when I see the same photo posted in a report from 5 months earlier, and every report posted under this name reports of fantastic success (both numbers and size of fish) on some of the most difficult streams to fish anywhere, it simply raises an eyebrow and causes me to question the report’s validity. Sorry but the photo thing just makes everything else suspicious.

I certainly don’t question an occasional 10+ fish day at Big Spring, especially in the ditch section because I, and others, have had them; but I do question when 10+ fish days occurs on a repeated basis, especially outside of the ditch. If anyone has fished the ditch and has seen how skittish and difficult the fish can be at times, well catching the fish in the ditch is a piece of cake compared to the fish outside of the ditch.

Success at Big Spring is a function of two things – being a good fisherman and most importantly, timing. If you’re fishing when the fish aren’t in a feeding mood, I don’t care what you throw at them your odds of catching any are not very good. When they are not feeding they are generally well hidden deep under and inside the weeds and incredibly spooky. A fly zipping under the weeds, drifting unnaturally, or getting stuck will spook the hell out of them in a heartbeat. And even if you get a good drift if the fish aren’t in a feeding mood, they won’t hit it.

So, timing is everything. If you happen to be on the water when the fish are in a feeding mood, at least you’ve got something going in your favor. But these fish are extremely skittish and freak at the slightest bit of unnatural movement or commotion. Generally if you do hook a fish, these are wild fish that fight and run like hell (even an 8” rainbow) and that fish causes such a commotion that the water ends up getting wrecked 50 feet upstream/downstream of the fish you just caught. You either have to wait it out or move to a new spot.
 
Oh well. It's the internet. If he's lying, at least it makes for an entertaining report.

Good report, and good posts all around.
 
bigspringfisher,
Welcome to the PaFlyFish forum. The forum members of this site include some very experienced and well informed fishermen. Your comments regarding the nature of FFing on BSC (and other Cumberland Valley limestoners) are correct and I cannot dispute them. These are my home waters and I have fished BSC and Letort for over 25 years. I am a member of Cumberland Valley TU and the Big Spring Watershed Alliance and I'd like to believe that I'm reasonably well informed regarding issues related to these waterways. Like yourself, I only rarely have multiple fish days but it does happen. Most of the forum members on this site are well aware of the technical difficulty inherent in catching multiple fish on this stream. Sometimes, forum members are quick to grasp at what seem like unbelievable posts related to these streams. A few months ago, I posted a photo of a 24" brown I caught in BSC and there was some instant disbelief in the eyes of some forum members. I agree that the photo captions raise some eyebrows but ryguyfi's post offers a viable possible explanation. At this point, I'm willing to extend DancesWB the benefit of the doubt. Yes, his previous posts often claim a lot of fish but maybe he only posts reports when he does well? Maybe he really is one of those excellent fly fishermen you refer to?
 
Hi Bill Ferris

Good to see you on the site. I meet you a few years back through Padraic, we did a stream clean up together and met a couple of times when Pad and I were fishing.

I haven't been down your way in awhile but that's got change soon.

PaulG
 
BigSpringFisher-

I just want to take the opportunity to clarify a few things so there is no more confusion on your end. I have been fishing Big Spring, Falling Spring, and the LeTort since I was old enough to hold a fly rod. I picked up my first fly rod thirty years ago. Combine that with 3-5 outings per week on the above referenced fisheries, and I would contend that I am more than "experienced." I contend that I can more than hold my own with some of the Commonwealth's best anglers. More times than not, I do have 10+ fish days on Big Spring. I have made several observations that might prove helpful to you. One, if your fishing is strictly relegated to the Ditch, you are only kidding yourself. Those fish see 10x the pressure of those downstream of the dam. Most of the people I talk to, prefer the Ditch because many fish are clearly visible and they can run a parade of flies in front of them for hours on end. If they are lucky, they catch one or two and call it a day. To them, this is BSC. I'm sorry to disagree, but it is not. Sure, I can go to the Ditch and show them some patterns that they have not seen in awhile and catch my fair share, but I do not find the Ditch all that challenging. If you do, then that is fine. Personally, I do not like fishing in a crystal clear bathtub, and I still can't get past the artificial feel of the Ditch even though the hatchery has long since closed. The lower project area is far more technical, and far more rewarding to me. If you are one of those who prefer the Ditch, and never do better than one or two fish per outing, then I can understand your apprehension towards people like myself who go above and beyond to explore and later master a stream.

As for the LeTort, I'm guessing that you never ventured out of the Heritage Angling Area? There is some widely held perception that the best fishing is always within a special regulation area. On the LeTort, this is the furthest thing from the truth. When fishing the LeTort, it is all about your expectation level. If you want to fish over a piece of history and maybe catch one or two fish-go to the Heritage Area. If you want to catch more fish, and you could care less whether you are fishing the same pools that Vincent Marinaro, Charlie Fox, and Ed Shenk once did-start EXPLORING. I can catch fish out of Big Spring, LeTort, and Falling Spring any time of the day so throw the timing theory out the window. Sure, if you are on the stream at the right time when there is a hatch, you SHOULD do better, but this is not always the case. Presentation is everything. Once you learn about the S currents of the LeTort and know how to properly present a fly-I could care less whether there is a hatch going on. If the fly represents something that the fish regularly eat, and they do not have to expose themselves or expend a lot of energy to take it, they will.

As for the photos, you got me. I use Rayovac rechargeable batteries which never last more than three hours before needing to be placed in the charger. The date has never been right on any of my photos, and I could really care less. The first photo I uploaded was from last year, and a prior post. My mistake. The other fish were caught and snapped on 3/29-3/30. I guess the grass isn't as "lush" up in the Ditch, but then that is what I would expect when there are constantly people tramping down the bank up there thinking that it is the best the stream has to offer. If you are of that mindset, please stay up there with the rest of the crowd. The truth is, the grass really is greener on the other side. If you see a 1994 green Pontiac Firebird Formula with a Widener Law sticker in the window-come find me. I would be happy to help you unlock the secrets of any of the streams above-your apprehension/condescension toward me notwithstanding. Take Care
 
ill second the thought about better fishing being outside the special regs area on both those streams. Often when you see me post about those stream it takes an excellent day for me to post about it.

Falling Spring is the only classic limestone spring creek i know of that the best fishing is inside the special reg area.

I almost forgot to add:

As far as the lying thing goes. Come on people, for what purpose would you think he would do that? Dances has helped me out a few times with advice on these streams and iam a very seasoned fly angler and look forward to more advice from him. He obviously knows these streams very well. When i took his advice on the Letort (a year after he gave it) I had my best day on the stream ever. Im going to take his advice (real soon in fact) about another location and i plan on it being a great day. So before we pass judgement and question him, lets give him the benifit of the doubt. This is how stupid fights start is because of accusing or suspiscion announced in public. If you doubt him, simpily ask him or even better, go fishing with the man.

Keep the faith Dances and keep the reports comin! And i meant waht i said before, me and you gotta go fishin sometime! :-D
 
Personally, after browsing this post, I carefully examined all of the photos posted by DWB. I looked at the grass in the photos as well. Some of the blades are brown or tan. Look around outside, do you see green grass with some odd brown vegetation,...I do. The temps have been warming for several weeks. I reviewed the post and kept my oppinion to myself until now. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and say innocent until proven guilty. Also, about the dates, if they were taken in summer, then he wouldn't be lying about the battery theory because it says they were taken in January.
 
To follow my last post, I would also like to add that I do not post all of my outings all of the time. In the past several weeks I have been to Big Spring Creek, Yellow Breeches, Muddy, Clarks, Stoney, The Letort, Swatara (downstream), and scouted around in Perry Co. , around Tower City, outside of Lebanon, and been to a few places in Cumberland Co. that I will not mention. My fly fishing has been on the up slope this past year after being in a slump the past few years do to having kids. I have been sneaking around after work lately as much as possible and convincing wifey that since I've drop all of my other hobbies she needs to give me more time on the water. I did not post about my last Letort trip because I am lousy and walked up on several trout and fished them even though I knew I had already alerted them. Also did not post my last Yellow Breeches stop even though I caught fish. Sometimes I just don't feel like posting. I also didn't post about Stoney or Clarks the last time I was out. If I get skunked or catch only one or two or even if I forget my camera I might not post about it. I also don't and will not post about two or three spots that I fish because I personally feel that I would be drawing attention to a place that even if not the greatest trout water, bass water etc., it may be one of the only places that I know of where I will be alone when I get there every time, and I would like those place to stay that way. I don't feel like any of us here are obligated to tell every body every single piece of info that you have stored away. If you disagree with that then I don't know where you're coming from. There has to be some hidden places and mystery to the sport.
 
I have fished BSC ten to fifteen times since moving down to Franklin County in 2004. It is the only limestone that I look forward to fishing. I primarily target small native brook trout streams. I have never had much luck, but I will follow your suggestion regarding the ditch.

It is unfortunate to have your comments and writings undermined like that.
 
It never ceases to amaze me how quickly some people are to question someone 's integrity that they don't even know. There are just some people in this world that are extremely good at what they do and I guess it's frustrating to others who haven't or cant reach that person's skill level. Do you think most people would believe that Tiger Woods is as good as he is if they couldn't actually watch him do his thing on national TV? Dances is obviously one of those people who has mastered catching trout on a fly to a level the majority of people will never achieve. The other thing is that the majority of folks think they are alot better fly fishermen than what they really are. Being a guide, I always ask a first time client if he is an experienced fly fisherman and if he can cast fairly well. I do that to help me to determine where I will take them so that they can have a positive experience. I don't take anglers new to the sport to streams where it's difficult casting nor do I take them fishing for wild trout. The problem is, most of them say " I've been fly fishing for ten years and consider myself a pretty good caster ". Most of the time it turns out that they can barely make a twenty foot cast and know almost nothing about fly fishing. Once in a great, great while you get pleasantly surprised and have a fairly stress free day with them. The rest of the time you really earn your money. My point is only this. Don't pass judgement on someone else or think that they are lying until you've seen what they really are capable of. Also, when assessing your own skill level at fly fishing or anything else a person should be honest with themselves and not overestimate their level of achievement. Like Clint Eastwood said in the Dirty Harry movie, " A man has to know his limitations ".
 
Like Sal, DWB has given me some helpful tips on where to fish the Letort. And I'm very thankful for them. On my first trip outside the Heritage section, I caught 10 browns on the day before the season opener last year. This was with 2 buddies fishing with me and they caught about 10 as well. I liked this section so much I went back on the season opener and caught 19 browns, 10 of them were on a BWO dry. So after getting advise from DWB, in 2 days I caught 29 fish out of a stream that had previously only given up 3 fish in 6 trips within the Heritage Section.

So keep your post coming Dances. Many on here enjoy them and to hell with those that don't.
 
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