Big Brother is Watching
- Thread starter Kneedeep
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There is no virtue in being wishy-washy and it does not represent "open mindedness" to be so. It is clear between the candidates for Governor and most other races, which of the candidates from which party are fully or more fully in the pocket of the industry. As someone who has had enough of big money interests controlling public policy, I would hope to see more people show the same passion about selecting candidates for their environmental views as they do criticizing an angler for fishing a 70 degree stream or laying a trout on dried leaves for a photo.
cmkrachen
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" I would hope to see more people show the same passion about selecting candidates for their environmental views as they do criticizing an angler for fishing a 70 degree stream or laying a trout on dried leaves for a photo."
I agree with this statement fully...however i don't think that taking contributions automaticallymakes one evil nor does it make them in debt to anyone. I feel on both sides of the aisle, we have people taking money from MS advocates, and that because in these areas Republicans are incumbents they will recieve the bulk of that money. This point was raised by Ryan and is very valid in my opinion. It does not necessarily follow that they are purchased by the MS advocacy, merely that they've recived donations. This is NO different, than Rendell and Co. receiving gross amounts of donations by labor unions, and then subsequently knocking down perfectly good turnpike plazas only to award the contracts to build said plazas to said unions who had donated...But i dont see you waving your arms up and down screaming corrupt in that situation?
I agree with this statement fully...however i don't think that taking contributions automaticallymakes one evil nor does it make them in debt to anyone. I feel on both sides of the aisle, we have people taking money from MS advocates, and that because in these areas Republicans are incumbents they will recieve the bulk of that money. This point was raised by Ryan and is very valid in my opinion. It does not necessarily follow that they are purchased by the MS advocacy, merely that they've recived donations. This is NO different, than Rendell and Co. receiving gross amounts of donations by labor unions, and then subsequently knocking down perfectly good turnpike plazas only to award the contracts to build said plazas to said unions who had donated...But i dont see you waving your arms up and down screaming corrupt in that situation?
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Once again, patent diversion and obfuscation of the data. The R candidate for governor has taken 5 times the amount than the D candidate. Even if you combine Onorato and Rendell, Corbett outshines them around 5-2. Corbett has been on the state-wide stage for the past 6 years or so. He's been running for Governor the whole time. There is no geographical explanation despite yours and Ryan's efforts to paint it that way. The difference is in industry sympathy and policy choices. The MS Industry knows that the D's will be less receptive to their efforts to once again exploit our natural resources for their own private gain. I can at least respect them for putting their money where it will do the most good. Unfortunately, too many people who actually care about the environment will accept your diversions, explain away the huge disparity in campaign funding by the industry and vote for candidates who couldn't care less about the environment. If so, they get what they deserve.
franklin
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To some extent the disparity exists because the donars don't think the Democratic candidate will win. If Onorato was up by ten points I don't think there would be such a disparity. You are correct that Corbett has been on the state wide stage longer so you would also expect him to pull in more. All other things being equal. If accepting money from the gas drillers is evil, why do you support any candidate which accepts the money? Maybe they are all crooks but some of the democratic candidates are just not as good at it?
You are painting the republicans with a broad brush based on a single issue. We could investigate others where we would find a disparity that favors democrats.
Edit: If Rendell was running for reelection against Corbett you would not see any disparity.
I'm concerned that Homeland Security was collecting personal information on people concerned about Marcellus Shale operations, and going to meetings, then passing that info on to the industry.
And I'm glad the media publicized that, and there seems to be some effort to put an end to the creating of dossiers on innocent people. That needs to end. I really never thought of this in terms of party politics. People of good will from both parties should work together to put a stop to this over-reaching on the part of Homeland Security.
And I'm glad the media publicized that, and there seems to be some effort to put an end to the creating of dossiers on innocent people. That needs to end. I really never thought of this in terms of party politics. People of good will from both parties should work together to put a stop to this over-reaching on the part of Homeland Security.
franklin
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Agreed. See my comments in the related thread in the OT section. If you look at who was reported on and who the reports went to you will see this was not targeted at the anti MS groups alone and the reports were circulated to many non-gas related entities. The so called security company was reporting on groups all over the political spectrum. Also if you look at the dollar value of the state contract you can see this was not funded by Pennsylvania alone. This is going on in other states and on a national level (not that that is a surprise)..
Reference post 28 http://www.paflyfish.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15446&viewmode=flat&order=ASC&type=&mode=0&start=25
It's not patent diversion. I'm not trying to paint it one way or the other it was a quick observation while I was reading thru the first few pages that Rendell & Onorato got numerous smaller sums while Corbett and the Repo PAC seemed to get larger lump sum payments (sorry I should have spelled out for you that I saw Corbett was getting larger payments I though it was obvious to anyone that read your link info.) Then I asked for your opinion on whether or not you thought the disparity in payments was due to not only Republican-dominated representation in MS areas but aso the fact that the Repos controlled the legislature (or it least one major part of it) and Corbett was seemingly a clear front-runner. You retorted with accusations of my alleged subversive intentions to help the Republican party or some such nonsense.
I think most of us can grasp that the issue goes well beyond political party lines but sadly this seems to be the only thing your mind is set on and you seem find it impossible to reconcile with opinions of others that don't share your specific political views. If the Dems cared so much more for the environment then why did so many of them backoff at the last minute on the previous push to include the severance tax in the last budget? It made many people working on the issue felt like they had been strung along only to see politics as usual as the Dems talked a good game to our face but in the end did not act in that same manner. It was a slap in the face. I think many of the Republicans were at least upfront with their position and followed thru with it accordingly and it was known where they stood all along.
The truth is the Republican politicians are no more or less sellouts than the Democrats, the only differences are which special interests each sells out the most to.
Franklin, I think its clear he supports any name with a big (D) behind it no matter what.
flytyingfred
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as a fly fisherman and a tu member I would like to way in on this topic. I live in a small town in ne pa. and have noticed that there are many more ppl here that did not have jobs a year ago are now working and paying state taxes. The state has leased lots of acres of land to the gas cos. They also are getting taxes from them while they are drilling and building pipelines these were reveues that were never here before what are they doing with all the new monies coming in have they tried to balance the budget I dont think so in fact we defaulted on a bond payment the other week. they should already have funds to check up on these cos without taxing them to death and taking a chance that they will stop operations or worse yet leave. You say they wont but you cant be sure. Our motels are full here now our restaurants are full of people and all that is good for the tax base. Last but not least I would like to know how many people on this site ride horses to your favorite fishing holes. I dont want to start a new name calling or backlashing i just am putting in my two cents for the other side.
You bring up good points and concerns. Aside from the motels and restaurants being full which is great, any idea what percentage of the new jobholders are PA residents vs. out of state company employees here on a per diem basis? I'm just curious.
Let me state that personally I'm definitely not against drilling for this resource, as long as it is doen wisely and with respect to other resources and all of the citizens of PA. A severance tax doesn't tax these companies to death, its commonly paid in other states and those companies bring in huge profits despite it. The gas is here, they know it and will be here drilling for it but not having a severance tax to pay just adds to their large profits so of course they would love to not see PA with one. PA didn't have one during the height of the coal-mining industry and we taxpayers are continuing to pay for the expensive and huge cleanup efforts as a result. We need to learn from that history and not repeat the same mistake now. A severance tax, and one with specific portions designated for conservation agencies like PFBC, PGC, & DCNR instead of just all to the general fund, will help set aside money for any post-drilling cleanup and restoration efforts (and it will be needed) without burdening the taxpayers of PA with the entire cost. A tax with dedicated portions to these agencies also will aid in monitoring efforts.
Sorry, I don't ride a horse but I've always wished I knew how to ride. I'm finally buying a place with enough land where I could even keep a few.
flytyingfred
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Ryan I guess I should have been more specific about the jobs. There are lots of people here that have benefited from the jobs. there are more people here from out of state sure but the jobs have come for locals also they are driving trucks and working on the piplelines we have a few small industries here that have lost workers to the gas industry and they all have signs out for new hires so we actually have benefited and some people here are paying taxes now instead of collecting government benefits. there is also the monies that the state is receiving from the royalties the people are getting paid. there is lots of new money the state never had before. I do see your point of making sure there is money there to reclaim the land when this is all done but they say there is enough gas here for 30 to 50 years. I will just say if history tells us anything about government it is that monies set aside for specific purposes doesnt usually stay there long enough to be of use when its needed.
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Like the gaming industry, the MS industry can bring a lot of good to the citizens. With the wrong management, which starts at the legislative level, it can bring way more evil.
Scrutinize your candidates on this issue. It may enlighten you not only about their position on the issue at hand, but also let you see clearly "whose side they're on."
I try to vote for candiates that are MOSTLY on my side. I don't think I can expect them to be on my side on every issue. It is at that point that one really must consider running for office if they want that kind of "total alignment" of views. I've done it, but it is easier to assist those with more time and money to actually mount a campaign.
Scrutinize your candidates on this issue. It may enlighten you not only about their position on the issue at hand, but also let you see clearly "whose side they're on."
I try to vote for candiates that are MOSTLY on my side. I don't think I can expect them to be on my side on every issue. It is at that point that one really must consider running for office if they want that kind of "total alignment" of views. I've done it, but it is easier to assist those with more time and money to actually mount a campaign.
Jack I think you and anyone else out there that so faithfully thinks that most of our legislators out there know more about something like MS drilling and why an adequate severance tax with a dedicated portion going to the PFBC, DCNR, DEP for conservation, protection, and enforcement is so critical are really taking things for granted. According to PATU's legislative liaison and the direct conversations he's had with several legislators he was surprisied how many of them are so uninformed about many of the critical issues with MS. Right now, in a nutshell PATU is recommending its members push their legislators for a 6% tax with 50% going to conservation inclduing agencies in charge of gas operation monitoring. The severance tax is coming, likely by October 1st, the question is what type, there are several bills being proposed inclduing one by Senator Scarnatti that appears to have some things in it that aren't a plus for conservation and protection.
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Scarnati is also Lt. Gov. and was second only to Corbett in taking MS lobby cash.
Not every legislator is well-versed in all legislative issues. They have committee assignments and the committees essentially study the matter by listening to interest groups privately and also during testimony at public hearings. The other legislators are free to research the issues, attend the hearings or receive report or transcript of testimony. Some have the time and others don't. Those that don't have learned who they can trust to get a good synopsis of the pros and cons. Ultimately some portion just trade their vote for something else that interests them, but by and large it isn't that simple and corrupt.
Not every legislator is well-versed in all legislative issues. They have committee assignments and the committees essentially study the matter by listening to interest groups privately and also during testimony at public hearings. The other legislators are free to research the issues, attend the hearings or receive report or transcript of testimony. Some have the time and others don't. Those that don't have learned who they can trust to get a good synopsis of the pros and cons. Ultimately some portion just trade their vote for something else that interests them, but by and large it isn't that simple and corrupt.
Yes, I did see Scarnatti's name come repeatedly on that. I think the #1 thing that most are interested in is saying what they need to get re-elected. From my interactions with politicians, republican or democrat, by and large I get the impression that most BS there way thru things with only a cursory knowledge at best of many critical issues. While some defintely do take the time to learn the issues in more depth I think you might be giving the whole lot more credit in that than they have earned.
Oh you might get a kick out of this, this past year I actually attended a fundraiser for a Democrat candidate, and I voted for him too.
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RyanR wrote:
You should do that more often.
I think if I said that most police officers I've run into have been ****y and bigoted, I'd catch hell, but it is OK to make such gross simplifications and categorizations about our elected officials. It is sad, but a false reality that needs to be dealt with.
You should do that more often.
I think if I said that most police officers I've run into have been ****y and bigoted, I'd catch hell, but it is OK to make such gross simplifications and categorizations about our elected officials. It is sad, but a false reality that needs to be dealt with.
So, at least you're being honest about your impression based on your own experiences. Catching hell at times is just one result of not being afraid to speak your mind. Of course there are times when its smart to leave something unsaid, I do recognize that.
