New Rulemaking Proposal PFBC (Pinners in the FFO Areas)

[DGC]

Mike wrote:

I should come here to learn about PFBC a proposals, as I had never even heard the words center pinning mentioned within Agency circles.

This is almost jaw dropping. If staff don't have that much knowledge about it, how do figure you should be designing regulations for it, nevermind trying to give it parity with fly fishing? Because the reel is round? Simply amazing.

To echo Troutbert, and contrary to Mike's general view, some of our landowners know their fishing tackle quite well and will only tolerate Fly Fishing for stretches they control. Once again, the attempt to apply a general notion accross the board will cost dearly in specific instances.

The Euro nymphers can handle the 18 ft leader max regulation in most instances. I am sure they would rather not have to for tactical or convenience or perhaps even economic reasons, but then they put up with some pretty strict rules if they compete FIPS-Mouche, so it's not like restrictions are foreign, and in fact, in most games, the nature of the rules are a big part of what makes them fun or interesting.

I suspect, contrary to what MHanes and Franklin say, that there have been a few Euro nymphers that have been cited for too long a leader or complete absence of fly line, and have complained. And yes, I do think a WCO would measure a leader if after eyeballing it they thought it was outside regs. All WCOs? Probably not.

You get the impression some clueless staff person saw this Symbicort commercial on TV and noticed what he thought was a variaton on fly tackle (because the reel is round and seems to be holding a fly line) though the rod is a float rod with the kicker being the use of a standard red/white bobber. Talk about a mashup.



This proposal is quite possibly even stupider than the DHALO proposal, and that is pretty damn stupid. If these hairbrained ideas are coming from staff to the commissioners, they should stop it already and concentrate on getting their surveys done and data published.

 

[pcray1231]

You get the impression some clueless staff person saw this Symbicort commercial on TV and noticed what he thought was a variaton on fly tackle (because the reel is round and seems to be holding a fly line) though the rod is a float rod with the kicker being the use of a standard red/white bobber. Talk about a mashup.

Haha, I've seen that commercial and just felt confused, lol.

But hey, they caught a fish!

 

[troutbert]

The PFBC made an agreement with the landowners that the stretch would be managed for flyfishing only.

So, the PFBC has an ethical obligation to manage that stretch for flyfishing only. Allowing non-fly fishing gear is breaking the agreement.

If the PFBC wants to change the way the stretch is managed, they have an obligation to contact each landowner, and get their permission.

 

[moon1284]

Didn't bother to read any posts. 100% no. I'd rather share a run with 3 guys fishing minnows or spinners than one pinner. There is nothing I hate worse than being steelhead fishing and having a guy speaking French wearing neoprene waders crowd me out from 100 feet away. If I was fishing a non ffo area and saw a pinner I'd leave. I'm sure there are pinners here, I'm sure you're nice guys, but I don't want to fish anywhere near you when your pinning.

 

[CRB]

"Furthermore, try to be diplomatic about the artificial vs bait litter situation all you want, but I see far more blue worm containers and eagle claw hook packages on general regs water than I do fly or artificial lure related trash. Does every type of angler litter? Sure, but the bait users are definitely the group responsible for the bulk of the trash. Granted they are the largest group of anglers, but go to any artificial only regulation area and see how much fishing related trash is there. Almost none."

I see that same thing on the Lake Erie Tribs.

"
If the true goal here is to chip away at FFO regulations, then go ahead and be up front about it: just do away with them."

I think that is the real agenda.

 

[tomitrout]

300 yd drifts starting

Wow, never been to the Salmon River, but it must be freaking hudge! Only time I get something anywhere close to an almost quarter mile long drift is when I'm floating in a boat.

 

[Mike]

"To echo Troutbert, and contrary to Mike's general view, some of our landowners know their fishing tackle quite well and will only tolerate Fly Fishing for stretches they control. Once again, the attempt to apply a general notion accross the board will cost dearly in specific instances."

How is that contrary to my general view? Is it just because I said it differently? I said, "many, if not most landowners," while the above states "some of our landowners."


As for staff not knowing about specific topics, the entire technical staff need not be an expert on each and every subject. I presume that those who proposed the regulation change are familiar with the technique from law enforcement, practical application, and biological standpoints.

I will reiterate that with all of the time I spend afield and fishing, I have only seen the center-pinning technique applied once, hardly an indication that I should be an expert on the subject. I see more high-end carp fishing equipment than center-pin gear.

The concerns that I have read here seem primarily to be 1) social concerns that deal with inconsiderate behavior, 2) the technical definition of fly angling, and 3) a concern about landowner reaction. If you have these concerns, then express them to the Commission. As I said previously, I am only trying to educate myself on the topic.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

I should come here to learn about PFBC a proposals, as I had never even heard the words center pinning mentioned within Agency circles. This is almost jaw dropping. If staff don't have that much knowledge about it, how do figure you should be designing regulations for it, nevermind trying to give it parity with fly fishing? Because the reel is round? Simply amazing. To echo Troutbert, and contrary to Mike's general view, some of our landowners know their fishing tackle quite well and will only tolerate Fly Fishing for stretches they control. Once again, the attempt to apply a general notion accross the board will cost dearly in specific instances. The Euro nymphers can handle the 18 ft leader max regulation in most instances. I am sure they would rather not have to for tactical or convenience or perhaps even economic reasons, but then they put up with some pretty strict rules if they compete FIPS-Mouche, so it's not like restrictions are foreign, and in fact, in most games, the nature of the rules are a big part of what makes them fun or interesting. I suspect, contrary to what MHanes and Franklin say, that there have been a few Euro nymphers that have been cited for too long a leader or complete absence of fly line, and have complained. And yes, I do think a WCO would measure a leader if after eyeballing it they thought it was outside regs. All WCOs? Probably not. You get the impression some clueless staff person saw this Symbicort commercial on TV and noticed what he thought was a variaton on fly tackle (because the reel is round and seems to be holding a fly line) though the rod is a float rod with the kicker being the use of a standard red/white bobber. Talk about a mashup. This proposal is quite possibly even stupider than the DHALO proposal, and that is pretty damn stupid. If these hairbrained ideas are coming from staff to the commissioners, they should stop it already and concentrate on getting their surveys done and data published.

+1

The concerns that I have read here seem primarily to be 1) the technical definition of fly angling, 2)a concern about landowner reaction. 3) social concerns that deal with inconsiderate behavior, if you have these concerns, then express them to the Commission. As I said previously, I am only trying to educate myself on the topic.

Fixed.

Look up true definition of fly angling and center pinning is NOT fly fishing.

 

[Fishidiot]

Mike wrote:
I will reiterate that with all of the time I spend afield and fishing, I have only seen the center-pinning technique applied once, As I said previously, I am only trying to educate myself on the topic.

I'm trying to think how many times I've seen center pin gear in SC PA - I think only once. As you've no doubt noticed in previous posts, pinning is much more common in steelhead country.

I'm not saying I favor allowing it in FFO sections (I don't, for all the reasons previousy stated) but it is a pretty rare sight around here.

 

[CRB]

Too many rules are lowering fishing license sales? OR, WCO's have more on their plate and have too many rules to enforce? More regulations could be a way to pay for retirement funds.....

 

[SteveG]

Aren't FFO areas labeled as Heritage Angling...

 

[Maurice]

SteveG wrote:
Aren't FFO areas labeled as Heritage Angling...

No Steve...The Heritage Angling Special Regulation was lumped into C&R FFO along with DHFFO. It was done in an effort to "simplify regulations" back in the early to mid 2000's.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

No Steve...The Heritage Angling Special Regulation was lumped into C&R FFO along with DHFFO. It was done in an effort to "simplify regulations" back in the early to mid 2000's.

Which is another huge mistake IMO. Not many streams in pa had that regulation, the Letort and Big Spring were two. About no better place on earth for our Heritage of Center Pinning......;-)

Even still.
If you are gonna allow center pinning if fly areas, then you might as well allow an open bail Shakespeare reel and a K Mart Ugly Stick, rigged with a float to drift nymphs.

It's not fly fishing.

 

[trike23]

Knowing a fair amount about both styles of fishing I must say center pinning is not much different than nymphing. Advanced nymphing techniques with long leaders and rods are not true fly fishing either IMHO. In czech nymphing or french nymphing your fly line rarely is on the water. Only difference is you can get longer drifts with the pin.which if the person has class they will not let drift in front of other anglers. Everyone has there own way of fishing. There is plenty of debate on what pure fly fishing is. As long as catch and release is praticed who gives a hoot?

 

[brookieaddict]

We can do something about it or we can wiiiiinnnnnne. Instead of posting in you forums write and call your reps and tell them how you feel. We elected them to represent our needs not their agenda. Get involved, or buy a baitcaster and some worms.

Charlie

 

[moon1284]

Centerpinning is not similar to fly fishing at all. Centerpinning is drifting a bait under a bobber, that isn't fly fishing.

 

[pcray1231]

Well, more typically it's drifting artificial nymphs/egg patterns/beads under a bobber/strike indicator.

I've never seen a pinner use bait. That said, it's possible. It's also possible to use bait on a fly rod.

The differences between pinning and fly fishing has little to do with the business end of the tackle. But there are PLENTY of differences on the other end.

It's a technique that's gaining in popularity. It caught on in the Erie tribs first, and remains most popular there. But it's spreading. Those that rarely see them today, I'm betting you'll see a lot more 10 years from now.

I don't think it's a bad thing at all, cept on crowded streams. Yes, it has to do with etiquette, and it's perfectly possible for pinners to have proper etiquette. That said, the primary draw of pinning is the long drifts, which by definition, means 1 angler effectively fishes a larger area. This means that the gear is specifically geared toward allowing the angler to utilize more space. In uncrowded conditions, no problem at all. In crowded conditions, it's a huge issue.

 

[streamerguy]

As others have mentioned, why not just make it C&R ALO?? Why are they gonna allow us to drift nymphs with a pinning setup but not a spinning setup?

center pinning = spin fishing. Again, the ONLY difference is the reel. The rod, line, and business end is the same.

 

[streamerguy]

pcray1231 wrote:
I've never seen a pinner use bait. That said, it's possible. It's also possible to use bait on a fly rod.

Most of the pinners I see use bait. Usually spawn sacks, jig/maggot, etc. Same stuff as the spin guys. Same rigging.....

Outside of the PA and OH Lake Erie tributaries(mostly Ohio), I've only seen a pinner once. He was fishing egg patterns in a DHALO.

 

[pcray1231]

center pinning = spin fishing. Again, the ONLY difference is the reel. The rod, line, and business end is the same.

Umm, no, the business end is the same as nymphing with fly gear.

The rod is more similar to a fly rod as well. Generally, the closest comparison would be a spey rod. Those long, two handed things.

But yeah, the line is the same as spinning gear.

Outside of the PA and OH Lake Erie tributaries(mostly Ohio), I've only seen a pinner once. He was fishing egg patterns in a DHALO.

On Erie (I haven't been up in over a year now, though), often they use BEADS. The whole moffitt thing. I also see plenty of fly gear running egg sacs. What the offering is doesn't really matter, it's something suspended from a float, just like you'd nymph with a strike indicator. You can put whatever you want as the bait/lure/fly.

Elsewhere, I've seen a few guys on trout streams and all of them have been nymphing. Lots of spin guys fish nymphs and wet flies as well.

Really, the differences between pinning and fly fishing OR spin fishing are:

1. Totally different tackle than either.
2. Because of different tackle, casting is different than either.
3. Drifts. With spinning gear, it's difficult to get a drag free drift at all, as you need lots of weight to cast, and thus if you don't use tons of shot you have to use a heavy bobber, which adds it's own drag. With fly gear, it's possible to get short distance drag free drifts, or slightly longer "low drag" drifts. With pinning gear, you can get as long of a drag free drift as you want. 70 yards? No problem. The limit is generally how far you can see the float.

So a pinner can be 100 yards upstream of you, and if he's an ******, he can still crowd you!