Spot Burning...Gim me a break

I feel that since i've fished close to 50 years now , learned much of what i know on my own , also found alot of my favorite places to fish on my own , i've paid my dues so to speak , if i choose to share any aspect of what i've learned , it's no one elses business but mine. If i want to help out a fellow angler and send them somewhere i know they can catch fish , i will , if i want to tell them about a spot that might not be something you want to share , doesn't mean i can't share it. It's not up to anyone but me.
 
jjsjigs,

Thanks for an update!

Maybe it was Little Schader I heard about. Either way, these are the kinds of things worth talking about.

I remember hearing that Schader was one heck of a stream in its day. Maybe ill get to fish it yet 🙂
 
afishinado wrote:
This is the third "spot burning" post started within the last day or two. I copied my post on one of the others.

Jack, I would be interested in how you respond to the last paragraph.


"My" spot, "your" spot. Huh? You may KNOW the spot, but it's not "YOURS." How about the landowner, the guy that owns it and lives there. I can't tell you how many times I've talked to landowners along a stream who have no problem allowing a few fisherman on their property. But when the place actually becomes a destination spot, and cars are parked all along the property with knocks on the door by fishermen asking permission at all times of day. I know of more than a few places on private property that the landowners have closed because of this.

If the stream is on publicly owned land, and you just have to tell everyone how great Jack's Run in Wideopen Park fishes, and how many big fish you catch there, than go ahead I guess. But if Jack's Run runs through Jack's Property, and he lives there, have a little respect for him, his family and his property and don't advertise and take advantage of his generosity.

I don't own land on the trout stream, but I do own some nice hunting land, and I know about what I speak.


[color=CC0000]I'll add this. If you fish on privately owned land, you are the guest of the landowner. Before you post the location, go up to the landowner and ask if it would be okay to post the location of their property on the Internet, and see what they say.[/color]


Worth reading a second time.

Spot On!
 
The extreme crowding happens during major hatches. So, no more "hatch-burning" please.
 
Just want to look at the flipside here... I'm all for not talking about the really good spots cuz anglers will invade the streams like a Mongol horde. BUT.... it's ok for Charlie Meck to spot burn in his books? But not here?

Just wanted to figure out how big the hypocritsy is gonna get. If this spot burning crap continue you are gonna see guys post disinformation on this site about the streams? Like... fish below the Old Forge Borehole on the Lackawanna River, or DEFINIATELY do wet wading at the FF Paradise?

When you start to limit the free speech and worthy information on such an excellent website here... you will lose - members, the creative spark that members have to actually post, etc, etc.
 
jj charlie mecks books are old...and require someone to purchase them to read and that means at least to a point, someone is interested in exploring...they are not as detailed and do not post glorious posts of numbers of fish caught recently...

furthermore they are only broadcast to the reader who again as i mentioned is seeking to learn of streams, not just hot spots to fish... Mecks books dont cover all streams, and the targeted audience is limited...not a ton of harvest fisherman are gonna spend money on a book when they can just gleam the info for free on a forum...plus the books as i mentioned are old...a stream that was great in his book might stink now, or vice versa...his books are guidelines...not blazing arrows painted in brag colored paint!
 
Maybe this will be good for some comic relief... it's a book with some good advice on fishing Slate Run on page 165, and it mentions several PA streams we might not want to mention on PAFF. Thing is, it was published in 1885 🙂 :

http://books.google.com/books?id=k_MVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA165&dq=%22slate+run%22+fishing&hl=en&ei=yIQdTLfEDYH_8AaEkO39Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=%22slate%20run%22%20fishing&f=false

Sounds like Slate Run already had some early season fishing pressure and anglers could "make good scores"... 125 years ago?. Private board $3/week, and you could hire a guide for $1 per day ... lol!

The book makes claims that are still accurate about some streams near me, but I'm not saying which ones. 🙂
 
Nice K-Bob,

It's just like Dr. Charles Lose's book on the Loyalsock. It gives detailed descriptions of spots on the 'Sock but it was penned in the 1930's.

The 'Sock doesn't fish that great in the book... it certainly doesn't fish that great now.
 
Wow K-Bob, great reading that spotburners book from 1885.
Take a few minutes to read it if you can, very interesting stuff.

Susquehanna salmon = shad?

Perch-Pike = walleye?

Bowman's Creek - the best trout fishing creek in PA

I noticed most streams were listed for warmwater fish only. (Before the Great White Fleet)

Thanks again K-Bob.
 
thanks, Afish. Amazing, all the things that are on the internet. I like the way Harris gives railroad info for streams. Nice that his comments on a few of my favorite streams seem to still be accurate, 125 years later. But there may be some 19th Century Spotburning From Beyond the Grave here, I have a book of maps showing old rail lines, and just what is that "**** run" he says is full of trout and only 3/4 of a mile from (Deleted) Station anyhow? 🙂
 
afishinado wrote:

Susquehanna salmon = shad?
I've seen this reference regarding Swatara Creek, and that is the best I can figure out.
Perch-Pike = walleye?

According to "Fishing with Ray Bergman", this is correct.

Boyer
 
k-bob wrote:
Maybe this will be good for some comic relief... it's a book with some good advice on fishing Slate Run on page 165, and it mentions several PA streams we might not want to mention on PAFF. Thing is, it was published in 1885 🙂 :

http://books.google.com/books?id=k_MVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA165&dq=%22slate+run%22+fishing&hl=en&ei=yIQdTLfEDYH_8AaEkO39Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=%22slate%20run%22%20fishing&f=false

Sounds like Slate Run already had some early season fishing pressure and anglers could "make good scores"... 125 years ago?. Private board $3/week, and you could hire a guide for $1 per day ... lol!

The book makes claims that are still accurate about some streams near me, but I'm not saying which ones. 🙂

What does "b.b." mean in these reports? It apparently reports to a type of fish.
 
Oh, my, here I go.
1. Charles Meck's books and articles did negatively affect fishing. He acknowledges that in his book "Memory Rising." Prior to the development of the evil empire, I thought Meck and his ilk did more damage -- for many reasons -- to trout streams than just about anything other than terrible pollution. In fact, I have often referred to k/t writing as another form of pollution. Nooooooo, Meck et. al. don't get a free pass from some of us old curmudgeons.
2. A spot-burn I just read on another site points out another negative aspect of s/b. The burner had had a bad morning on the BFO (big, famous, overfished) River, so he went to another creek that he named and told exactly where he fished. He noted that he landed 20 trout when he was thumping his chest. What he did not mention that this creek, which he fished from noon till 4:30, probably should not have been fished at all after 11:00, as its water temperature rises into the 70's after that. So, how many of the fish he thumped his chest about died from the stress of being caught in temperatures that high? How many more may bite the dust when other guys read his post and head there for an afternoon of high-temp trout fishing? Geez...
3. As I warned Afish and CM and as CRA knows, the s/b-k/t crowd just doesn't care what it does to fish and to streams. You young guys really do have a lot to deal with if you're to continue to enjoy any kind of quality fishing during your lifetime of fishing. At 60, I'm slowing down, but I still cringe when I see one of these guys sell out a vulnerable place.
4. I wish this stuff didn't make me mad -- but it still does, esp since there does not seem to be anything anyone can do to change the s/b-k/t people's minds/attitudes. And, as k/t icon Meck acknowledged, it harms streams and the fish/fishing: it is the wrong thing to do.
 
b.b. means black bass. Just another name for a smallmouth.
 
troutbert: on page 8 of the book linked above, Harris gives his set of abbreviations. b.b. = "black bass," so smallmouth, as jjsjigs said?

I could have read Harris' 1885 descriptions of a few wild trout streams I know well, and believed they were just written... can't get over that! Habitat preservation probably explains it.

You can find some intersting 1880-1890s PA fishing reports in other old editions of "The American Angler" using the Harvard library:

http://fig.lib.harvard.edu/fig/?bib=002832183

The indexes at the start of each American Angler edition seem to list fishing reports, usually toward the end of the index under "fishing and fishing grounds." Some pages are missing, but there's some good stuff in there. For example, on page 10 of Volume 6, one 1880s angler notes that the trout of Pennslyvania's Pine Creek are "terribly hard fished" and "well educated." 🙂

also some good ads for old-school fishing tackle.
 
rrt wrote:
Oh, my, here I go.
....4. I wish this stuff didn't make me mad -- but it still does, esp since there does not seem to be anything anyone can do to change the s/b-k/t people's minds/attitudes....

Why is that? If you have the rational and clearly superior point of view, how come you cannot convince others? Do you think this is their fault or yours? Obviously the former, but I suspect that it may have something to do with:

(a) lack of proof that internet and other sources of information harm streams in general. Sure you can find the anecdotal evidence of a section of private water being posted because of increase traffic from an internet post, but

(b) how can anyone prove that increased traffic was not the result of, for instance:
(i) a nice day to fish;
(ii) an expected hatch;
(iii) word of mouth "outing" of the stream or the hatch commencement; and

(c) to the extent a stream becomes more crowded, likewise an angler becomes more educated, gains options on where to go (not just Spring or "the Breeches,)" experiences something new and magical. Some of us see this latter effect as not only a balance to the extra angler on a previously unknown water, but as a shifting the needle further toward the good by:
(i) spreading anglers out (that is, removing pressure from some other water);
(ii) having more anglers "interested" in the water, to care for it and advocate for it when it faces threats [Consider: "Let's run the drain down this ravine and into the creek." "But, what about the fish?" "Oh, don't worry about it, nobody fishes there."];
(iii) being more of a selfless act in that it shares information, rather than a typically selfish act that keeps information close to the vest to preserve the interest in the "in the know" angler having a relatively greater amount of solitude on the water.

I honestly think both sides have reasons to hold onto their opinion on this topic. I think it is good that we periodically re-exam our position.
 
For Jack, mainly: I don't know, Jack, I just don't know. I actually try to imagine how the other side of this issue looks, but then I see a #2 of my rant, and I know that fish will die b/c of the k/t. It really doesn't spread things out much, and even with your Socratic logic, you must realize that. One guy from 25 other streams attracted to another b/c of a sb doesn't make any difference on those, but it can certainly overcrowd the one where they go, esp if it is a small and/or vulnerable stream. Spreading things out just doesn't work as you like to think.
As for the "friends" issue, that does not apply as well as you might like. When stream P lost its hatches a few years back, I didn't notice those who had sold it out rushing to its defense. No, it was not the LJR. These "friends" also do not show up on stream improvement workdays.
And the posting -- honest, Jack, it really does occur b/c of k/t.
Your rationale often does make me think, Jack, but in the end, at least in my experience, it fails, at least in the ways I've enumerated.
As for my being wrong: I have been wrong about lots of things, but I honestly think I am right about this. If I had not seen the negative affects of what k/t does to streams, I wouldn't be so strident in my opinions.
Once again, I will refer you to k/t icon Chuck Meck's admission in his "Memory Rising." Even this long-time kiss-and-tell writer acknowledges the damage that is done by k/t. Even he knows it is wrong.
Sorry, Jack, you seem to be a good guy, but I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye on this one.
rich
 
Clearly we won't ever see eye to eye on this, but I will still make the effort.

As for Meck's late-life admission, consider that Richard Wagner champion of atheistic, humanistic, hedonistic high-society wrote Parsifal in his later years (pissed Nietzsche off it seems). Famous atheists have found God late in life, and who knows what Jesus may have said in explanation of his doctrines if his ministry were not terminated by death at age 33.
 
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