NC PA drought-- Brookies at risk?

Mike said:
Streams could be dry this year and Class A next year. It’s probably unusual, but it happens. See below from my friend and former AFM colleague:

I asked him about a stream that he attempted to survey for the Unassessed (wild trout) Streams Program well over a decade ago. It was bone dry when he and his crew arrived to conduct the survey one year and was full of wild ST the next. See his response below (I deleted the stream’s name).

“I think the stream you’re talking about is ………….. Creek, a direct tributary to the Susquehanna. It was dry one year and Class A ST the next. Given that it made Class A we must have found multiple year classes and at least some YOY.”
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Do you or your colleague have an explanation for how that many trout could survive when the stream was totally dry?
 
wildtrout2 said:
Subterranean refuge?
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I didn’t know that you knew that those exist in some form in at least one stream in California and in a “natural channel” with a gravel bottom situation in a hatchery where brook trout kept disappearing and reappearing . I think I only mentioned it once or twice in forum over the years. It (diving or wiggling into the gravel) was discussed specifically regarding ST in the graduate level Behavior of Fishes course that I took from Dr. Robert Butler at PSU in 1974. I think I mentioned it before as one possible explanation as to why pre opening day electrofishing surveys of Class A wild trout streams (ST and BT) have somewhat smaller populations and lower biomasses than those documented during summer surveys on the same stream sites.

In limestone areas fish will utilize underground stream situations to get from one surface location to another. Another good friend and former colleague who purchased a farm in Ky had two ponds on the property that completely dried up each early summer and each year there would be a complete kill of carp. The closest stream was quite some distance away, but it was apparent that the carp were using an underground passage to get to the pond each year.
 
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Mike said:
Streams could be dry this year and Class A next year. It’s probably unusual, but it happens. See below from my friend and former AFM colleague:

I asked him about a stream that he attempted to survey for the Unassessed (wild trout) Streams Program well over a decade ago. It was bone dry when he and his crew arrived to conduct the survey one year and was full of wild ST the next. See his response below (I deleted the stream’s name).

“I think the stream you’re talking about is ………….. Creek, a direct tributary to the Susquehanna. It was dry one year and Class A ST the next. Given that it made Class A we must have found multiple year classes and at least some YOY.”
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Reading this is what suggested subterranean refuge as a possibility. I can't think of another explanation for trout not showing up at all one year during an attempted survey under completely dry conditions, and showing up as a Class A population during a survey the next?

I watched a Hardman Fishing Adventures video from his out West collection, and he fished a small stream that was bone dry for a very long stretch, then he came to an isolated section with some water where he found cutthroats, although very small. He mentioned the possibility that they were surviving because the stream flows underground for a distance.
 
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Brad it looks like there's more moisture w/ this cold front pushing through than first anticipated, so hopefully between now and Sunday, y'all get a bit more rain.
 
Good to see any rain at all right now. Just have to chip away at the dry high pressure system that's been stuck over the area.

DC had record dry August with 0.2" rainfall. But we got a ton in May, June, and July so the streams are barely below normal. Some are around 25th percentile.
 
sarce said:
Completely agree with this but will add, sometimes when you get into suburban areas with more stormwater impacts, culverts are sometimes creating the only pools with enough depth for summer refuge. Or pools below small dams. I have at times seen seemingly 80% of the trout population in a single culvert pool. Sometimes that critical habitat on otherwise poor streams is manmade which I find interesting.
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Yep, I’ve seen that too.
 
Mike said:
Streams could be dry this year and Class A next year. It’s probably unusual, but it happens. See below from my friend and former AFM colleague:

I asked him about a stream that he attempted to survey for the Unassessed (wild trout) Streams Program well over a decade ago. It was bone dry when he and his crew arrived to conduct the survey one year and was full of wild ST the next. See his response below (I deleted the stream’s name).

“I think the stream you’re talking about is ………….. Creek, a direct tributary to the Susquehanna. It was dry one year and Class A ST the next. Given that it made Class A we must have found multiple year classes and at least some YOY.”
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And what of the forage base? Am I correct in assuming a dry creek bed eliminates all of the aquatic insect larvae, crayfish etc. imagine some may migrate downstream to larger waters with reduced flows - has anyone collected any data for insects/crustaceans/minnows/darters etc?
 
sarce said:
Completely agree with this but will add, sometimes when you get into suburban areas with more stormwater impacts, culverts are sometimes creating the only pools with enough depth for summer refuge. Or pools below small dams. I have at times seen seemingly 80% of the trout population in a single culvert pool. Sometimes that critical habitat on otherwise poor streams is manmade which I find interesting.
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That's true not just in suburbia but in some areas of the "Big Woods" of PA.

I wonder if the people doing culvert replacements are aware of it. Improving fish passage is good, but if you lose many of the best pools on a stream, that hold a substantial portion of the stream's population, that is not good.

Ideally someone could design culvert replacements that served both functions.

Same with replacing old bridges with newer bridges. The new bridges typically have wider spans, which improves ability for high flows to pass through, but often results in little to no pool formation. Are the people designing bridges giving any consideration to fish habitat?
 
Been a busy, albeit short work week; just read this thread closely and selfishly, since I will be taking my fall vacation up that way during the last week of Sept/1st week of Oct. Home base will be Little Pine state park for 4 days, then crashing with family near Ebensburg for the balance.

I was hoping to do some blue lining in Potter, Clinton, and Lycoming Cos for the 1st part of that week, then finishing up on some Allegheny Front Class-As/Natural Repros, and possibly the LJ while staying @ my MIL's in Cambria Co for the 2nd 1/2 of the week, before heading back home to the land of corn and swine.

'Course, with my luck, a hurricane will park itself over PA and blow everything out a few days before I come out. 😫😢 LOL

In that case, maybe head north to the UP? 🤷🏻‍♂️💡
 
CinnamonJoe said:
Been a busy, albeit it short work week; just read this thread closely, since I will be taking my fall vacation up that way last week of Sept/1st week of Oct. Home base will be Little Pine state park for 4 days, then crashing with family near Ebensburg.

I was hoping to do some blue lining in Potter, Clinton, and Lycoming Cos for the 1st part of that week, then finishing up on some Allegheny Front Class-As/Natural Repros and possibly the LJ while staying @ my MIL's in Cambria Co for the 2nd 1/2 of the week, before heading back home to the land of corn and swine.

'Course, with my luck, a hurricane will park itself over PA and blow everything out a few days before I come out. 😫😢 LOL

In that case, maybe head north to the UP? 🤷🏻‍♂️💡
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More water is better than less at this point of the year. Even if you have to sit out a day to let the small streams drop, I’d still rather have that than super low and clear for a week (which is more the norm), from an angling perspective, for that time period.
 
Different gauge than OP, but it looks like Kettle Creek at Cross Forks was similarly low as now, last time in August 2022-just geeking out on the gage data 🤪:
 

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CinnamonJoe said:
Been a busy, albeit short work week; just read this thread closely and selfishly, since I will be taking my fall vacation up that way during the last week of Sept/1st week of Oct. Home base will be Little Pine state park for 4 days, then crashing with family near Ebensburg for the balance.

I was hoping to do some blue lining in Potter, Clinton, and Lycoming Cos for the 1st part of that week, then finishing up on some Allegheny Front Class-As/Natural Repros, and possibly the LJ while staying @ my MIL's in Cambria Co for the 2nd 1/2 of the week, before heading back home to the land of corn and swine.

'Course, with my luck, a hurricane will park itself over PA and blow everything out a few days before I come out. 😫😢 LOL

In that case, maybe head north to the UP? 🤷🏻‍♂️💡
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Northern Cambria and Southern Clearfield were my old stomping grounds as my roommate at Penn State lived in Hastings. I wonder how those streams have held up over the years. We caught plenty of brookies back in the day. That would be late 80's. Maybe you could check some of those out and report back!
 
While Driftwood Branch is comparatively lower, Kettle’s gauge is 15 cfs, and is in the green (25th to 75th percentile for today’s date). Low water in late Summer = normal. Kettle fishes best around 300 cfs IMO.
 
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