Limestone Stream....

[firandfeather]

I'll be at Somerset and the fly tying symposium in November.

 

[jdaddy]

Mike,
Out of curiosity, are you presenting or anything at the newly introduced Philadelphia Fly Fishing Show? I figured you maybe one of the guys they get as a presenter, as they are trying to have more local folks than the Sommerset show. We were discussing this organization introducing the Philly show and how much they are competing with themselves at the Sommerset show.

 

[firandfeather]

I'n not yet sure if I will be at the new show. I will be at Somerset. They have not yet sent us any details about the new show. So I don't even know the set-up- tyers isle or such. I'm worried it will hurt the smaller NCC-TU show later in March. That is much more benificial to go to since the profits go to stream issues. NCC-TU give FSTU and other monies so we can continue our work projects.

 

[jdaddy]

Here is a question that I have pondered for a few months. What causes the varied differences in weed growth in limestone streams? I particularly notice a huge difference between LV and CV streams. Cress and elodea are choking the CV streams however once you get into LV there some very hard limestoners that have little to no weeds associated with limestoners. Of course there are exceptions, I fished a tiny little limestoner here in Berks that was full of elodea. However, in general there seems to be huge differences in volume. Ph and total dissolved calcium do not seem to be a factor. Could it be temps? I have not been in the headwaters of many of the LV limestoners, but find the sections that I fish to be warmer than the average CV stream. Anyone have a definitive answer? How about educated guesses?

 

[troutbert]

jdaddy wrote:
Here is a question that I have pondered for a few months. What causes the varied differences in weed growth in limestone streams? I particularly notice a huge difference between LV and CV streams. Cress and elodea are choking the CV streams however once you get into LV there some very hard limestoners that have little to no weeds associated with limestoners. Of course there are exceptions, I fished a tiny little limestoner here in Berks that was full of elodea. However, in general there seems to be huge differences in volume. Ph and total dissolved calcium do not seem to be a factor. Could it be temps? I have not been in the headwaters of many of the LV limestoners, but find the sections that I fish to be warmer than the average CV stream. Anyone have a definitive answer? How about educated guesses?

Here are some guesses.

1) There seems to be a lot more water weeds when a stream is open to the sun, and a lot less where there is shade from trees.

2) Low gradient streams tend to have a lot more weeds than limers with higher gradient (steeper, faster).

3) Substrate makes a difference, and is related to no. 2. Where the gradient is coarse, i.e. cobble size, you don't get many weeds. You see a lot of weeds where the substrate is fine gravel and silt.

 

[MKern]

I have also noticed that smaller/shorter streams have more cress beds.
EX. Tea Creak is only a mile long and has weeds, but Kish doesn't.


Troutbert is probably spot on though.

 

[jdaddy]

1) There seems to be a lot more water weeds when a stream is open to the sun, and a lot less where there is shade from trees.

Bonnybrook Letort at the Quarry is very heavily wooded with little sunlight but has heavy cress and elodea. Little Lehigh through the park is fully exposed to sunlight for a large portion, yet it has little vegetation. It seems that streams have dense vegetation throughout whatever the variable is. Sections of Letort and Falling Spring Branch are both wooded and meadow, but full of vegetation throughout.

2) Low gradient streams tend to have a lot more weeds than limers with higher gradient (steeper, faster).

In the samples I can think of this seems to hold validity. Slow streams with complex currents seem to harbor the greatest vegetation. There are almost no riffles or surface turbulence on heavily vegetated streams that I can think of.

3) Substrate makes a difference, and is related to no. 2. Where the gradient is coarse, i.e. cobble size, you don't get many weeds. You see a lot of weeds where the substrate is fine gravel and silt.

Again, I think you may be on to something here. Sandy bottoms tend to foster the vegetation.

I have also noticed that smaller/shorter streams have more cress beds.
EX. Tea Creak is only a mile long and has weeds, but Kish doesn't.

I have not found that length is a determining factor. Also Tea and Kish are not really limestoners, rather Tea appears to be a freestone originating from sandstone that gets limestone influence from limestone springs. You state Tea has weeds. Is it typical limestoner cress and/or elodea of another form of aquatic vegetation?

 

[MKern]

Tea has typical limestone vegitation.

I have been to both sources of Tea, the second being the one most people consider the start of the stream, and I have seen very little sandstone.

Matter of fact, the main source of Tea's water shoots right out of the side of the mountain.

However, Honey (Tea's sister stream) starts as a freestone and reemerges as a limestone.

Troutbert is more of an expert, than I, on these stream though.

 

[jdaddy]

Nor am I familiar with them, I just read a stream project report to see what the alkalinity and pH of these streams were to see if that could impact the vegetative growth. Those reports were the source of my info. Tea sounds like a stream I would like to hit one day.

 

[MKern]

Tea has good years and bad years. One day I can catch, or at least see fish every where, the next time it's barren.

I've heard the Amish and Menonites like to clean it out.

It's probably my learst favorite local stream. There are many better streams within walking distance that are loaded with fish and aren't on the class a list.

 

[Chaz]

A limestone stream flows out of the ground usually at a very large spring, but sometimes the spring isn't so large. The springs flow out of limestone aquifers deep in the ground, and generally have very high flow rates. For instance as I write this the flow at Big Spring is 27 cfs, the flow and the mouth of the WB Perkiomen Creek, a freestone stream is 6 cfs. Comparing that to the mean, Big Springs flow doesn’t change substantially from one season to the next. Also the flow from the spring is great enough to moderate the stream temperature throughout the watershed.
On the other hand, a freestone stream such as WB Perkiomen flows from many small springs and seeps. It maintains temperatures low enough to keep trout from cooking, but not enough to keep them from being stressed during the hottest weather. The flows however are dependent on ground water flows through the system and these are totally dependent on precipitation, not the water store in the deep aquifer. This is the biggest difference between the two types of streams. Limestone streams flow from very large aquifers, and since limestone is relatively soft water is store in the rock as well as large caverns. Freestone streams ground water is not stored in large underground caverns and basically comes out of the ground about as quickly as it enters the ground.
Freestone streams can be very fertile through is they flow through the Catskill formation. This formation of rock adds buffering and fertility to the stream. In the Poconos for instance many of the streams start in wetlands, are warm and acidic, but as they drop they pick up flow from lower strata and cool down and pick up the Catskill flows becoming very fertile streams along the way. They warm some in the hottest months but still maintain temperatures cool enough for trout.
One brookie stream I know of in the Reading area has a temp at the headwater of 51 degrees and flows at that temperature all year, to the mouth. Freestone streams in the area get too warm for trout. There is another type of stream that is rare in PA, that is a spring creek that flows from a glacial moraine or a periglacial area. Germania Branch and Sunken Branch both in Potter County are periglacial streams. The streams on Long Island are moraine streams. These streams have good cold flows that are fairly stable, but the moraine streams give me the impression of maintaining much better flows. These streams are very fertile.

 

[foxfire]

Found this old post!! Got "hooked' on my first limestoner this past week - catching a few dink wild browns (my first, second, and third) and losing two 18" or so that got me into fast current and broke my 6x tippet as I was attempting to negotiate an overhanging tree. Just purchased the book!