PROPOSED GUN REGISTRATION

JackM wrote:
Very well, but it was all rhetorical.

The whole "Big Brother is coming to take your guns" thing gets kinda old. I would think even an avid gun owner like yourself would tire of it after a while.

Yes, it does get tiring, but the problem is it doesn't seem to get tiring for those that want to take my right away. What do you think would happen if all of us gun owners sat on our hands and said only to ourselves "Let them talk and introduce Bills, it will never happen" ???
 
littlejuniata wrote:
Would it be better to have this (if necessary) to apply only in the two cities? and have a separate consideration for those who have had a valid hunting license for the last ? years!

LJ, the problem with that is hunting is a privelege, not a right (in most states and i think that includes PA). And what about new hunters? It is part of my heritage. Still not a right though, which means it could be taken away much easier. Especially if they take the guns away.
 
Dave, to be sure, there are some who advocate gun confiscation, others reasonable regulation, others still no regulation, period. The thing that disturbs me is that when there is an effort to regulate, people who would be inclined to consider some reasonable regulation are scared away by the "coming to get your guns" brigade. If gun owners really thought about it, they would support some reasonable regulation overwhelmingly, however, they are afraid to consider it because they buy into the false belief in the "slippery slope."

I suppose that everyone who buys the slippery slope arguments should advocate no season limitations, no creel limits and no minimum size requirements for trout, because if you don't oppose these restrictions now, pretty soon they will be confiscating our fishing rods.
 
Jack
I appreciate being slightly misinformed and discovering the truth in the details myself, than choosing to close my eyes and hope nothing could go wrong in our goverment.
It is a goverment of the people, that means ME. I served in the Navy to protect this country and will continue to moniter it's progress as long as I live. Hell, I might even make a mistake in my perspective on an issue. The sky isn't falling because of people's involvement and despite other's remarks contrary to the dangers of the world we live in. So be comfortable, have your opinion, and live in peace.
Now, where is my NRA renewal?
Flyman
 
The words "gun control" and "common snese" do not even belong in the same language, gun control is crap, heck you can kill someone with a well sharpened #2 wooden lead pencil.
 
If the new hunter had taken and passed a hunting test and had a current license then that would qualify them.
 
Flyman, please go back and read my posts before you insinuate that I am trying to discourage anyone from being vigilant of their rights or even vigilant of what the legislature or individual rogue legislators might be up to. My main point was that when posting these "call to action" type things, be thoughtful enough to provide a link or something so we don't go off ranting about something that isn't even being proposed or has very little chance of passing. That little courtesy would focus the debate on the real issues much quicker. It was only a suggestion. Sometimes it is more entertaining this way.
 
Man, three hours and three pages...gotta be a new record. I knew where this would go. All I have to say is that Yes, your right to keep and bear arms is protected to in the constitution. The odds of anyone or any group getting that changed slim at best. Should you sit idly by when the subject comes up? No, but as Jack pointed out, it will come up. Again and again as long as there are those that think otherwise. We all just debated for days about smaller creel limits and bigger size limits for a fish. Its not unreasonable to think we will disagree more aggressively on a topic that has a little heat to it and a little more at stake. Its all good.
 
Jack,
I was not saying you were discouraging anyone in their vigilance in goverment affairs. I was expressing my distrust of our or any goverment without the citizens involvement ie, "I appreciate being slightly misinformed and discovering the truth in the details myself, than choosing to close my eyes and hope nothing could go wrong in our goverment."
The "Big Brother" remark lead me to believe that you were insinuating that what ever our goverment does is probably OK. I don't.
I do agree with you, that more details on the bill(or other topic) would be a good thing.
Good debate, gotta love freedom. :lol:
Flyman
 
Just in case, I think the thing to do is for the more fervent 2nd Amendment people to take Rick Santorum hostage and refuse to release him until the legislation is rescinded.

I mean, he's probably available. It isn't like he's doing anything...:)
 
RLeeP wrote:
Just in case, I think the thing to do is for the more fervent 2nd Amendment people to take Rick Santorum hostage and refuse to release him until the legislation is rescinded.

I mean, he's probably available. It isn't like he's doing anything...:)

Dear RLeeP,

He's way too slippery to grab ahold of! :-D

Regards,
Tim Murphy :)
 
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.



Annotations
In spite of extensive recent discussion and much legislative action with respect to regulation of the purchase, possession, and transportation of firearms, as well as proposals to substantially curtail ownership of firearms, there is no definitive resolution by the courts of just what right the Second Amendment protects. The opposing theories, perhaps oversimplified, are an ''individual rights'' thesis whereby individuals are protected in ownership, possession, and transportation, and a ''states' rights'' thesis whereby it is said the purpose of the clause is to protect the States in their authority to maintain formal, organized militia units. 1 Whatever the Amendment may mean, it is a bar only to federal action, not extending to state 2 or private 3 restraints. The Supreme Court has given effect to the dependent clause of the Amendment in the only case in which it has tested a congressional enactment against the constitutional prohibition, seeming to affirm individual protection but only in the context of the maintenance of a militia or other such public force.


In United States v. Miller, 4 the Court sustained a statute requiring registration under the National Firearms Act of sawed-off shotguns. After reciting the original provisions of the Constitution dealing with the militia, the Court observed that ''[w]ith obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such forces the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted with that end in view.'' 5 The significance of the militia, the Court continued, was that it was composed of ''civilians primarily, soldiers on occasion.'' It was upon this force that the States could rely for defense and securing of the laws, on a force that ''comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense,'' who, ''when called for service . . . were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.'' 6 Therefore, ''n the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than 18 inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well- regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense.'' 7


Since this decision, Congress has placed greater limitations on the receipt, possession, and transportation of firearms, 8 and proposals for national registration or prohibition of firearms altogether have been made. 9 At what point regulation or prohibition of what classes of firearms would conflict with the Amendment, if at all, the Miller case does little more than cast a faint degree of illumination toward an answer.

Footnotes

[Footnote 1] A sampling of the diverse literature in which the same historical, linguistic, and case law background is the basis for strikingly different conclusions is: Staff of Subcom. on the Constitution, Senate Committee on the Judiciary, 97th Congress, 2d Sess., The Right to Keep and Bear Arms (Comm. Print 1982); Don B. Kates, Handgun Prohibition and the Original Meaning of the Second Amendment (1984); Gun Control and the Constitution: Sources and Explorations on the Second Amendment (Robert J. Cottrol, ed. 1993); Stephen P. Halbrook, That Every Man Be Armed: The Evolution of a Constitutional Right (1984); Symposium, Gun Control, 49 Law & Contemp. Probs. 1 (1986); Sanford Levinson, The Embarrassing Second Amendment, 99 Yale L.J. 637 (1989).

[Footnote 2] Presser v. Illinois, 116 U.S. 252, 265 (1886). See also Miller v. Texas, 153 U.S. 535 (1894); Robertson v. Baldwin, 165 U.S. 275, 281-282 (1897). The non-application of the Second Amendment to the States is good law today. Quilici v. Village of Morton Grove, 695 F. 2d 261 (7th Cir. 1982), cert. denied, 464 U.S. 863 (1983).

[Footnote 3] United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875).

[Footnote 4] 307 U.S. 174 (1939). The defendants had been released on the basis of the trial court determination that prosecution would violate the Second Amendment and no briefs or other appearances were filed on their behalf; the Court acted on the basis of the Government's representations.

[Footnote 5] Id. at 178.

[Footnote 6] Id. at 179.

[Footnote 7] Id. at 178. In Cases v. United States, 131 F. 2d 916, 922 (1st Cir. 1942), cert. denied, 319 U.S. 770 (1943), the court, upholding a similar provision of the Federal Firearms Act, said: ''Apparently, then, under the Second Amendment, the federal government can limit the keeping and bearing of arms by a single individual as well as by a group of individuals, but it cannot prohibit the possession or use of any weapon which has any reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia.'' See Lewis v. United States, 445 U.S. 55, 65 n.8 (1980) (dictum: Miller holds that the ''Second Amendment guarantees no right to keep and bear a firearm that does not have 'some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia'''). See also Hickman v. Block, 81 F.3d 98 (9th Cir.) (plaintiff lacked standing to challenge denial of permit to carry concealed weapon, because Second Amendment is a right held by states, not by private citizens), cert. denied 117 S. Ct. 276 (1996); United States v. Gomez, 92 F.3d 770, 775 n.7 (9th Cir. 1996) (interpreting federal prohibition on possession of firearm by a felon as having a justification defense ''ensures that [the provision] does not collide with the Second Amendment'').

[Footnote 8] Enacted measures include the Gun Control Act of 1968. 82 Stat. 226, 18 U.S.C. Sec. Sec. 921-928. The Supreme Court's dealings with these laws have all arisen in the context of prosecutions of persons purchasing or obtaining firearms in violation of a provisions against such conduct by convicted felons. Lewis v. United States, 445 U.S. 55 (1980); Barrett v. United States, 423 U.S. 212 (1976); Scarborough v. United States, 431 U.S. 563 (1977); United States v. Bass, 404 U.S. 336 (1971).

[Footnote 9] E.g., National Commission on Reform of Federal Criminal Laws, Working Papers 1031-1058 (1970), and Final Report 246-247 (1971).
 
http://www.issues2000.org/Senate/Rick_Santorum.htm#Gun_Control I see the jerk still has an active web page complete with a donation link!! Unbelieveable..........I just sent him .02 cents via the link and PayPal and it went through!! Isn't that illegal?? http://www.issues2000.org/Social/Rick_Santorum_Corporations.htm what a jerk
 
I think it was the movie "dirty rotten scoundrels" where they tried that and the kidnappers ended up paying to give him back. I don't think anyone wants him.
 
Article I, Section 21 of the Pennsylvania Constitution:

The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.
 
The problem is that in Phila. they are killing each other off at the rate of 1+ per day. They are in a panic mode and are going after the guns because they can't control the the real problem which is drugs. They have had numerous gun buy back programs which do nothing to address the problem. The thugs controll the streets of Phila. and the police and politicians have lost control and this is their answer, to punish all gun owners because of their failure to control crime in the city.
 
You nailed it Lou, the politicans are too busy lining their pockets, I wonder how many murders involve "illegals
 
JackM wrote:
Dave, to be sure, there are some who advocate gun confiscation, others reasonable regulation, others still no regulation, period. The thing that disturbs me is that when there is an effort to regulate, people who would be inclined to consider some reasonable regulation are scared away by the "coming to get your guns" brigade. If gun owners really thought about it, they would support some reasonable regulation overwhelmingly, however, they are afraid to consider it because they buy into the false belief in the "slippery slope."

I suppose that everyone who buys the slippery slope arguments should advocate no season limitations, no creel limits and no minimum size requirements for trout, because if you don't oppose these restrictions now, pretty soon they will be confiscating our fishing rods.



Jack, your second paragraph is just plain stupid. but about your first paragraph ... Every argument has 2 extreme ends. What happens if one end lays down and takes a nap?

I'm not an extremist. Not even close. I feel there should be reasonable legislation. I also feel that there is reasonable legislation in place. I have no problem with getting a concealment permit if I feel I need to carry a gun. I have no problem with background checks in order for me to purchase a gun.

The introduced Bill is not reasonable. I don't have kids, but I bought my first gun when I was 14 with my paper route money. It was a Remington Model 870 Wingmaster and I still have it. That's a pump action shotgun in case you didn't know. How do you think my father would have felt if I needed to be photographed and fingerprinted in order to buy that gun? You have stated that it is not going to happen. I agree, but let me ask you this. Why is it not going to happen? We both know the answer.
 
The second paragraph isn't stupid at all. But I can understand your wanting to think so because it blows away the slippery slope falsehood that I suspect you have found yourself persuaded by.

Now on to "why won't it happen." My belief is that it won't happen for the reasons I already mentioned-- first, it goes too far and places too big a burden on gun ownership; second, it won't happen because Bubba and Bubbette will be inflamed by the rhetoric about Big Brother coming to get your guns and few legislators who want to be re-elected (and that's nearly all of them) will touch it with a ten foot pole. Unfortunately, few will even want to get close to a more reasonable gun control measure for the second reason.
 
Guys, don't get your undies in a wad. The dems have tried to sneak bills like this in before by attaching them (more like burying) in other bills. There is also a bill in the U.S. Senate that guarantees the individuals right to own firearms (H.R 73). The big win is that the Second Amendment was recently upheld in the Washington DC case that deems the districts "no gun" laws unconstitutional. That case isn't finished, as a matter of fact, it'll probably get hung up for years in the courts, but at least the fight is on.
The best thing we can do as gun owners and sportsmen is to stick together, let your local State Reps, Congressman and Senators know how you feel about gun control, and be responsible, intelligent gun owners. This bickering back and forth only adds fuel to the anti crowd.
John
 
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