PFBC Fall stocking: angler feedback

Maurice wrote:
This is a good thread...this past Sunday I went fishing. Got there and no one in parking lot. Then somebody pulled in. I fished for two hours and went back to car....now three cars there. Drove downstream to the wire and fished there for an hour and then left, went past the same lot and there were two more different cars. Thats five cars/fishermen at least in three hours at the lower end. Fade was at the upper end with two fishermen, not sure if he saw anyone else.

i was at rebers bridge on the tully on sunday - one guy there in the lot, when i pulled in, and three guys pulled in just as i was leaving - unless that was you in the lot, thats spooky but thats another five anglers.

anyway - perhaps we should have a log of fall winter days fished, and anglers seen.

i would lay even money that i will see almost as many anglers in October and November as i do in May & June.

 
GeeBee,

I was at Muddy Creek.
 
Maurice wrote:
IMHO, I believe the WCOs and Biologists should be tasked with creating better alternative solutions rather than cutting the opportunities off at the knees. Anyone can if asked find a way to save dough. Even if the kids don't eat. Afterall the F&BC is supposed to be about creating fishing opportunities not eliminating them.

^ +1000
 
geebee said:

" i will agree - yesterday i travelled 100 miles round trip to the Tully. 2 1/2 hours in total.

primarily because Fishing Creek, Hammer Creek WB Octoraro Creek and White Clay Creek are not stocked.

yes, there are likely some holdover trout THIS Year, but as we have no other wild trout fishing, the single 1 mile DHALO on the Brandywine is pounded to death, as i am sure the Ridley and French creeks short sections are too."
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There are plenty of fall opportunities in and near Chester Co. The Middle Branch of White Clay DH Area located at Landenberg's (your home town) back door is privately stocked in fall and I have been told supports holdovers. Apparently, you did not know that. Pickering, I am told, holds trout over in the DH Area and has holdovers and wilds in the regular stocked trout section. Valley and Little Valley have Class A wild brown trout populations. Indian Run has a decent wild brown population. Many tribs (small) to the West and East Branches of Brandywine support wild trout...brooks or browns. Conowingo Ck, no far from the W Br Octoraro fly stretch (no fall stocking), supports wild trout and probably holdovers in at least the upper mile of the regular stocked trout section as well as a Class A brown trout population just upstream. Most tributaries to the Susquehanna in southern Lancaster Co and eastern/southeastern York Co support wild trout. As for Ridley in near-by Delaware Co, the stocked stretch is not short. The fall stocking intentionally includes 0.6 mile fly stretch and the 3 mile regular stocked trout stretch. If you want to go to northern Chester Co. then you will most likely find holdovers in French Ck from somewhere around Warwick Co Park or St Peters Village up through the state game lands. Crossing into Berks Co, the upper end of the Hay Ck stocked section also supports some wild trout plus holdovers. I'm not sure which Fishing Ck you were referencing, but the Lancaster Co one has holdovers and wild trout in the upper part of the stocked section and the one near Long Level/Craley, York Co supports wild and holdovers throughout. And that list is just off the top of my head.

Additionally, negative vibes out of Clinton and York Co's boggle the mind with all of the wild trout and annual holdover opportunities there. When I fish in York Co I don't even think about going to Muddy Ck proper with all of the other opportunities in that general region of the county.

 
First of all, Mike K doesn't directly determine what streams get stocked during the fall or in the spring. Based on surveys and other information PFBC determines what streams to stock.
That being said if anything ATW's in SE PA should be the most heavily stocked stream during the fall season because that's where the PFBC gets most of their revenue.
I don't have a pony in this parade, because I don't fish any stocked streams in SE PA. I cross them all the time to get to my favorite wild trout waters.
I pretty much ignore the LL, have only fished the Tully once, rarely fish Monocacy and Saucon Creek even though they are very close to my home. I have no lack of fishing opportunities in SE PA if I wish to pursue them.
Did you know there are more miles of wild trout stream in SE PA then stocked waters?
 
Here's a way to save money, stock fish from the hatchery nearest the streams to be stocked.
Here's an example, Pine Creek DH areas are stocked from Bellefonte Hatchery not sure which one when the could and should be stocked from the Oswayo Hatchery, much close big gas savings.
Another way is to allow Co-ops to stock some of the fall streams, but they'd have to change the policy regarding holding fish out of the spring stocking.
 
Mike - WCC is not stocked yet. as a member of WCCFF i'm told very few trout holdover, having fished there in late july i am inclined to believe.

And yes, there is plenty of tiny creeks wher you might pick up a trout of two if the conditions are right - higher water and overcast, i like VC but thats not fun all the time.

 
The poll is not working.
 
Also you cannot limit the SE of PA to the 5 counties around Philly, Lehigh and Northampton Counties are both closer to Philly then Lancaster. I would also include Lebanon County.
If you included all of M. K's. region it would include several more.
 
Chaz wrote:
First of all, Mike K doesn't directly determine what streams get stocked during the fall or in the spring. Based on surveys and other information PFBC determines what streams to stock.
That being said if anything ATW's in SE PA should be the most heavily stocked stream during the fall season because that's where the PFBC gets most of their revenue.
I don't have a pony in this parade, because I don't fish any stocked streams in SE PA. I cross them all the time to get to my favorite wild trout waters.
I pretty much ignore the LL, have only fished the Tully once, rarely fish Monocacy and Saucon Creek even though they are very close to my home. I have no lack of fishing opportunities in SE PA if I wish to pursue them.
Did you know there are more miles of wild trout stream in SE PA then stocked waters?

Yeah, thats pretty much totally wrong. Mike (the AFM) makes the determinations based on those criteria. from what I understand anyway...

 
I am a huge fall fly fishing guy, me and my dad are fortunate to live within an hour of Oil Creek in NW PA. I am also of course a very lucky person in the fall because of steelhead, but to be honest I get tired of fighting the crowds and would rather drive an hour and fish fall stockies. That being said, they were stocking 2 sections of SR on Oil Creek and have now cut it down to 1 section in the fall. I was very bummed when they did this as the section they stopped stocking is one of my favorite sections.

I know I don't have much say with what the fish commission does, but I think they should up the price of the Trout stamp. I would be willing to pay more if there were more stockings and an overall better quality of fishing. I enjoy fly fishing too much to watch stockings dwindle like they have.

Just my 2 cents and tight lines!

Dan
 
Afish: I appreciate your effort to interview anglers and calculate a usage estimate. Asking anglers what they intend to do is not the route to take, however. Intentions have little merit unless they are acted upon; that's why angler counts on stocked streams are the route to take.

Just for future reference, given a choice between intentions and recall, it would be better to ask for recall of how many times angelrs fished fall stocked waters last fall. But recall surveys have their own problems as well. For instance, some anglers would answer that they fished a fall stocked water even though the stream they fished was not stocked or was not stocked in the management section that they had fished. Their recall of the number of trips made would also be problematic, unless they made very few or else kept a log/diary. Recall surveys are more effective at the tail end of the season rather than a year later.

I emphasize, however, that I appreciate the fact that you took the time to do your survey and express a heart-felt opinion.

As for the counts, weekend counts following the day of fall stockings should be the highest counts seen if the weather is good and should serve as an index to the amount of usage that can be expected in the fall (October, November, early December). In the sub-sample of waters counted across the state, angler usage was low except for one stream. There had been hope for better usage, but the usage seen confirmed what had been heard for years from WCO's, some anglers, one fly fishing group, and some other staff members. The vast majority of the fall stocked streams are fished very lightly (painfully lightly).

I think it is important also for anglers to know that the fish stocked in fall are taken from the spring program, meaning that the number stocked the prior spring in the very same stream section is reduced by the number that is stocked in the fall in that section. Furthermore, due to over-summer mortality, more fish have to be held back from the overall spring program in order to meet the fall allocation numbers. Ultimately, the fall program is much more expensive per fish stocked than the spring program and if usage is low it begs the question whether streams with low usage should be in the program.
 
I think afish's survey is valid and brings up a very sad and real realization, fall anglers fishing for stock trout have been short changed.

I don't think anyone in the PFBC can estimate angler usage and have it at all be accurate. You can assume the weekend following would see more usage but everyone's schedule is different week to week.

All I know, is in my experience over the years fishing fall stocked stream sections is they are fished fairly often. Most days I go to one, there is another angler there.

I can assume someone is when I'm not there also.
Personally, I'm not that disappointed because as these cuts happen, it means a reduction in the stocking of waters that also support wild trout.
 
I would favor stocking a lesser number of fish in the spring in order to support fall and/or winter stockings.

I'm fortunate to live on the Lackawanna and fish it frequently. It is nice to have other options, though.

Besides that, I need the dumb fish around so I can practice my long distance release.
 
"Everyone's schedule is different week to week." Statistically, that does not make any difference. An equal number of anglers who could not be on the streams on the first weekend might be there the second or third weekend. Meanwhile, anglers who could be there the first weekend might not be there the second or third weekend because their schedule did not allow it. For most anglers, however, there is generally a greater incentive to be there on the first weekend after stocking. If they can't make it then or on the day of the stocking, or the day after, they just don't bother to fish.

If one more angler had been on each of the counted streams during the time of the count, his/her presence would not have changed the conclusion that angler usage was low. It was very low...too low for one angler to make a difference.

So fall anglers are being short changed?
Devil's advocate here...Springtime anglers could claim that they are being shafted by the fall program because many more fish are being stocked per angler in the fall and at a higher cost to produce those fish and those fish are not being well-utilized like they would have been in the spring.

 
Mike

I did not mean to give the impression that I felt short-changed. My thoughts are that fewer fished stocked in the spring could shift some funding to support fall/winter stocking.

Many streams cannot support trout over the summer and would provide angling opportunity in cooler months when the water temperatures drop and water levels increase.

While at our local fly shop today I heard a suggestion was made at a local meeting that there be two classes and costs of trout stamp. The standard for those that wish to keep fish and a lower cost stamp for those of us that practice catch and release. Not a neat and tidy solution but shows there are thoughts out there.

 
I laugh at the thought of the "majority", that has the biggest slice of the pie and a enough push to sway "politics and policy", is being short changed in any senerio.

Ok so Fall guys aren't being shortchanged, they just have less and less stream sections with less fish, it's all good. I say just cut the rainbow fingerling program/experiment too, cut your way until you no longer even have to deliver fish.

Fish for free days and first day of trout in the concrete raceways of unlimited limiting out;)
 
I headed out last night from 5-6 in the local stocked stream. I did see two other anglers, both fishing holes that I'm 99.9% positive don't contain any fish this time of year due to some stocking points being skipped etc.

I think with the limited fall stocking, some anglers will go out without being too knowledgable on holding spots and stocking points. They will quickly become frustrated and write it off as either "they didnt stock any" or "they all got pulled out". This is the pain point of stocking low numbers of fish in the fall. As for me? I went and found fish in a few minutes and only had one long release, but they are still around. As much as I love having a stream stocked before winter, I think a good many might find it frustrating. I dont want it to stop though :)
 
Fall angler counts were low in 2014....too low. Around 1 angler per mile on the weekend after stocking occurred.
 
Mike wrote:
Fall angler counts were low in 2014....too low. Around 1 angler per mile on the weekend after stocking occurred.

Again this shows the PAF&BC's proclivity towards stocking trout for the sole purpose of seeing them "harvested" as quickly as possible. I guess unless fall stockings result in a line of vehicles following the white truck from spot to spot they can't be considered successful.

I fished once this fall on a non-stocked stream. I will probably fish a stocked stream this month and all winter depending on the weather. I know the fish are there and just because I wasn't there the day after they were put in shouldn't mean it wasn't worthwhile.

We also had little rain this fall. I really have no desire to fish very low water with thousands of leaves floating down the stream. Maybe others felt the same way. Conditions will improve and I'll be out there as will others.
 
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