Euro vs. Drop Shot Nymphing

[Deuterium]

What do posters think of Galloup's claim that fishing nymphs 6" off the stream bed rather than along the bottom is important, because trout do not feed below where their head?

 

[NewSal]

Nymphing a heavily weighted point fly, is exactly the same thing as drop shotting except the "drop shot" is a fly, and that fly can catch fish, shot cant.

 

[jacob]

I think the 6" thing makes sense, but like all other things in fly-fishing there are no hard fast rules. I'm sure fish eat plenty of things rolling along the bottom and I doubt they would say "eh, it's not 6" up I am not eating it."

I would agree that a fish has a better chance of seeing it slightly off the bottom and not below their line of sight.

 

[Deuterium]

jacob wrote:
I think the 6" thing makes sense, but like all other things in fly-fishing there are no hard fast rules. I'm sure fish eat plenty of things rolling along the bottom and I doubt they would say "eh, it's not 6" up I am not eating it."

I would agree that a fish has a better chance of seeing it slightly off the bottom and not below their line of sight.

Thanks. Worth trying.

 

[PennKev]

NewSal wrote:


Nymphing a heavily weighted point fly, is exactly the same thing as drop shotting except the "drop shot" is a fly, and that fly can catch fish, shot cant.

Fishing a heavy point fly is a great way to lose a lot of heavy point flies. If the fish aren't eating a tungsten bead head, lead wire wrapped, copper ribbed thingamajig then fish the drop shot.

I guess my point is that using a drop shot rig with split shot is a great way to make bottom contact without snagging up constantly.

 

[PennKev]

jacob wrote:
I think the 6" thing makes sense, but like all other things in fly-fishing there are no hard fast rules. I'm sure fish eat plenty of things rolling along the bottom and I doubt they would say "eh, it's not 6" up I am not eating it."

I would agree that a fish has a better chance of seeing it slightly off the bottom and not below their line of sight.

Keep in mind that to fish 6" off the bottom you need more than 6" between your shot and bottom dropper. Depending on situation you may need over a foot of Tippet between your shot and the point at which your dropper is tied in. 15" is not really too much in many cases. It really depends on the angle at which your leader/tippet are situated in the water. This being affected by how much your need to lead the rig on a tight line or how far out your a casting. Or both. A long across stream cast into swifter water will require your dropper to be farther away from the shot as your leader is angled through the water at a shallow angle.

 

[ryansheehan]

Deuterium wrote:
What do posters think of Galloup's claim that fishing nymphs 6" off the stream bed rather than along the bottom is important, because trout do not feed below where their head?

Just like eveything else Galloup says, he has a good idea but then he takes it a little over the top for effect. The last time I caught a trout with a mouth so big and tall it was 6 inches off the bottom.......never. His idea is right though, trout typically feed on food bouncing along the bottom, tumbling up and down. Now just how far from the bottom who knows. Kev makes a great point though that 6 inches from weight to fly will NOT keep the fly six inches from the bottom.

Finally, when nymphing my four major adjustments in no particular
order are
1.weight
2.speed
3.fly
4.distance from bottom
It took me a long time to realize #4 was just as important as the other
three.Where in the water column you fish is often overlooked until you catch a few fish right after changing.

 

[PennKev]

ryansheehan wrote:
4.distance from bottom
It took me a long time to realize #4 was just as important as the other
three.Where in the water column you fish is often overlooked until you catch a few fish right after changing.

I agree.

Prior to really getting into droppers and drop shot rigs, my go to way of fishing farther above the bottom was putting a lot more distance between my fly and weight with an in-line arrangement of fly and weight. There are two major problems with that method though. First the depth really isn't regulated. I was relying on the current kicking my fly up off the bottom or the fish taking the fly before it settled all the way to a drift along the bottom. Second, contact with the fly was terrible and strikes just weren't apparent. The use of droppers and drop-shot rigs solves these problems very effectively.

 

[Deuterium]

Thanks, all, for your insights. I am going to adjust my nymping rigs to pay closer attention to how far the flies are drifting from the bottom.

 

[NewSal]

PennKev wrote:

NewSal wrote:


Nymphing a heavily weighted point fly, is exactly the same thing as drop shotting except the "drop shot" is a fly, and that fly can catch fish, shot cant.

Fishing a heavy point fly is a great way to lose a lot of heavy point flies. If the fish aren't eating a tungsten bead head, lead wire wrapped, copper ribbed thingamajig then fish the drop shot.

I guess my point is that using a drop shot rig with split shot is a great way to make bottom contact without snagging up constantly.

When you truly dial in your fly weights and know how those flies react in different water types you don't snag up. That comes with experience.
Of course if you blindly put on a 1000 gram fly and expect it to work in all situations you will loose flies, you have to be diverse and spend time fine tuning and dialing in your fly weights. Once you acheive a good selection of weight for different depths and different levels of the water column fly choice becomes second nature and you can put your fly in whatever depth or water column you desire without hangups or other mishaps, and have the opportunity to present more flies to more fish without the addition of split shot.

 

[afishinado]

All interesting stuff.

It's all fun. I love messing with rigs and flies. I've used a shot on the point for many decades. It's a great rig to try, depending on the conditions at hand and what the fish are looking for at the time. I also mess around with fishing weighted flies. There are a few advantages of using shot instead of an anchor fly.

First, the flies themselves; if you don't tie, it's really hard to find flies to fish of different weights. If you do tie you may spend more time at the vise and filling your flybox with the same patterns all in different weights. With shot, any fly or fly pattern will work, since the fly is not used to get your rig down to the bottom. Rather than choosing the fly for its weight, you are more free to choose a fly for it's fish catching ability. How frustrating would it be to have the right pattern, but in the wrong weight and have your fly clunk on the bottom because its over weighted or ride up near the surface being underweighted.

Second, the velocity and depth changes all the time as you work up or down a stream. It's a very simple task to add or remove shot to match the flow and depth rather than have to change flies.

Third, the stream has rocks and rises and you will inevitably hit bottom and snag with a fly and break off, or have to wade in to unsnag the fly. Most times shot will slide through rock and snags. If you do snag, it usually clears easily with a tug or two. If not, most times the shot will pull off, and it's simply a matter of adding shot back on and continue fishing without retieing or rerigging.

Fourth, even if you are not snagging the bottom, you will inevitably pick up slime or grass on the point fly. You must pull in your fly and clear it all the time. If you have shot on the point, just keep casting, a little bit of slime actually camouflages your weight!...lol

Fifth, you really have no real idea how deep you are fishing unless and until you feel your shot ticking on the the bottom. A fly ticking on the bottom is likely to get snagged and/or pick up slime, rendering it useless. Also, if your anchor fly is ticking on the bottom, it may be too close to the bottom and out of the line-of-sight of the fish.

Sixth, you can fish multiple flies with shot on the point. Just tie two or even three flies above. The point shot will tick the bottom assuring your are fishing effectively near the bottom. The first fly should be just above the bottom, right on the fishes nose, and the second or even third fly will drift through the levels above. At times I like to probe a little up in the column with my upper flies. I often use unweighted soft hackles for that purpose. But in other cases I use multiple weighted flies behind the point to form a chow line of flies presented in the zone down deep. This is especially effective in the winter or early spring when the fish are more dormant and nothing is hatching, and the fish are not up in the column chasing and feeding.

Good stuff!

 

[PennKev]

First, the flies themselves; if you don't tie, it's really hard to find flies to fish of different weights. If you do tie you may spend more time at the vise and filling your flybox with the same patterns all in different weights. With shot, any fly or fly pattern will work, since the fly is not used to get your rig down to the bottom. Rather than choosing the fly for its weight, you are more free to choose a fly for it's fish catching ability. How frustrating would it be to have the right pattern, but in the wrong weight and have your fly clunk on the bottom because its over weighted or ride up near the surface being underweighted.

Yeah. Although I have found certain flies , when tied heavy, to work exceptionally well as anchor flies, I am not going to carry GRHE's in three or four sizes and four different weight configurations.

Everyone needs to figure out what level of insanity they enjoy and do that.

 

[JakesLeakyWaders]

I find it funny that the fly fishing community adapts something used by bass fisherman forever, renames it, and says its new.

I read an article decades ago, from Infisherman magazine I think titled "Fishing on the Rocks". It basically describes how to peg a bullet weight with a bead and toothpick below a soft plastic bait so that you can feel structure and keep your bait just above the bottom allowing you to just give a tug if you become stuck and add a new weight before your next cast instead of having to re-rig.

I was too cheap for fancy beads so I would use a split shot below a bullet sinker 18" below a soft plastic. Worked great in deeper lakes like Marburg.

Being a bass fisherman first, I eventually learned the same techniques can be used in fly fishing as in spin fishing but with more finesse, which is just cool, man.

 

[ryansheehan]

JakesLeakyWaders wrote:
I find it funny that the fly fishing community adapts something used by bass fisherman forever, renames it, and says its new.

I read an article decades ago, from Infisherman magazine I think titled "Fishing on the Rocks". It basically describes how to peg a bullet weight with a bead and toothpick below a soft plastic bait so that you can feel structure and keep your bait just above the bottom allowing you to just give a tug if you become stuck and add a new weight before your next cast instead of having to re-rig.

I was too cheap for fancy beads so I would use a split shot below a bullet sinker 18" below a soft plastic. Worked great in deeper lakes like Marburg.

Being a bass fisherman first, I eventually learned the same techniques can be used in fly fishing as in spin fishing but with more finesse, which is just cool, man.

My favorite is when fly fisherman invented the bobber...... indicator.

 

[JakesLeakyWaders]

My favorite is when fly fisherman invented the bobber...... indicator.

Yeah exactly, lol.

It's funny though, even though I've used and adapted other bass techniques spin fishing while fly fishing, I'd never thought of using the "drop shot" technique for trout, even though it had worked well for me on deep structure for bass on a spin rod.

So on one hand you say, well that's nothing new, but on the other why the hell didn't I think about trying it before.

I mean if you think about it fly fishing is just spin fishing backwards and scaled down. With spin fishing your not limited much to lure size on the larger end of the scale because the momentum of the lure pulls the line. While in fly fishing your not limited as much to size and weight going down to the smaller end of the scale because the line carries the momentum. There's a medium in there where you could basically fish the same lure in a different way than when spin fishing, or a fly the same way you would spin fish with a certain lure just with more finesse.

This is why I always thought it was silly when people get all crotchety when you don't fly fish the way they think it's supposed to be done.

 

[SteveG]

Galloup's claim is not correct as fish can see below that 6" area, due to reflection at the surface.

In the Ring of the Rise has some good info on trout vision that will change the way you fish.

 

[JeffK]

A lot of interesting ideas. Here are a few things I can add.

If using 3X or 4X you can use small nymphs if you tie them on with a loop knot. I fish in Reno NV and all the locals use tiny nymphs when appropriate, but use 3X or 4X in case they get a big old brown on - however, with heavier tippets they tie the nymph on with a loop knot. One year the fly fishing industry show was in Reno and the pros who were there laughed at the local use of heavy tippets, until the locals outfished the visitors on their home water. Home field advantage helps, but heavy tippets with loop knots works here as well.

The roll on the bottom or up to mid level depends on the fish - there are no hard fast rules. I watch fish a lot and often the fish rise somewhat above the bottom when they are feeding heavy and it makes sense to put the fly above the bottom, even to mid level. Sometimes they are grubbing stuff off the bottom. Rainbows especially like to grub things off the bottom and sometimes have rubbed noses. I once asked the late Al Miller about the best level to fish an Al's Rat and he said at the level the fish are feeding. Trout can see top to bottom IMHO - the question is where are they looking.

 

[PennKev]

SteveG wrote:
Galloup's claim is not correct as fish can see below that 6" area, due to reflection at the surface.

In the Ring of the Rise has some good info on trout vision that will change the way you fish.

What about broken moving water? Or cloudy water conditions? Or fish holding very deep?

I suppose under ideal conditions a fish could use the surface reflection to find food drifting below it. I'm not sure how often this actually happens. More likely, a fish just sees the fly/food from far enough away and can react to change it's depth as needed to intercept food.

I think the real point to suspending your flies 6" (or whatever depth) above the bottom is to make them appear as easily noticed, easily captured meals, o to imitate struggling, emerging insects.