Euro vs. Drop Shot Nymphing

[PennKev]

There are a lot of switch check rods that don't really follow any rules as to line weight designation, particularly in regard to the first wave of rods to hit the market years ago. At any rate, my analogy wasn't to bring actual two handed casting into the equation but only to demonstrate the effects of a very long, heavy rod.

As to a long rod making it easier to create line speed in heavier single hand applications, consider that one of the current fads in rods is sub-8ft 7wt+ rods geared towards bass and like/muskie fisherman. IMO, the real advantage of a longer rod for distance casting is the ability carry line in the air without slapping on the water or ground on the back casts or false casts. Short rods can generate good line speeds without a problem, the problem is you need better casting mechanics to keep from false casting into the water before your final delivery.

 

[afishinado]

PennKev wrote:
There are a lot of switch check rods that don't really follow any rules as to line weight designation, particularly in regard to the first wave of rods to hit the market years ago. At any rate, my analogy wasn't to bring actual two handed casting into the equation but only to demonstrate the effects of a very long, heavy rod.

As to a long rod making it easier to create line speed in heavier single hand applications, consider that one of the current fads in rods is sub-8ft 7wt+ rods geared towards bass and like/muskie fisherman. IMO, the real advantage of a longer rod for distance casting is the ability carry line in the air without slapping on the water or ground on the back casts or false casts. Short rods can generate good line speeds without a problem, the problem is you need better casting mechanics to keep from false casting into the water before your final delivery.

Add this to the confusion > shorter rods are better tools for fighting fish since more leverage tips the advantage towards the fish when fighting against a longer rod.

 

[cms829]

Now I'm confused. lol. But I like my 10' hardy a lot!

 

[afishinado]

cms829 wrote:
Now I'm confused. lol. But I like my 10' hardy a lot!

Yes sir! Find a 10 footer that casts well for you, and you will see how well it performs for all types of fishing.

My 10 footers are my go-to rods for nearly all my freshwater fishing. 10/4 for trout and 10/7 for smallies and steelhead.

And to really get the most out of your 10' rod, match it up with a fly line with a long head. The longer head will extend your ability to mend, roll cast and overhead for longer distances.

 

[troutbert]

PennKev wrote:

As to a long rod making it easier to create line speed in heavier single hand applications, consider that one of the current fads in rods is sub-8ft 7wt+ rods geared towards bass and like/muskie fisherman.

What benefits are they stating for shortish fly rods for bass and muskie fishing?

 

[Jessed]

Is euro nymphing and tight line nymphing the same thing??

 

[PennKev]

troutbert wrote:

PennKev wrote:

As to a long rod making it easier to create line speed in heavier single hand applications, consider that one of the current fads in rods is sub-8ft 7wt+ rods geared towards bass and like/muskie fisherman.

What benefits are they stating for shortish fly rods for bass and muskie fishing?

I dunno. Gotta sell new rods somehow.

Honestly though, I've seen a few such rods first hand and they seem rather nice. I see some merit in having as light and handy of a rod as possible if you need to fish a heavy line weight. Shorter rods accomplish this.

Sage was the first to offer such rods and their sales pitch was that the rods were legal length to use in tournaments. However, after several years on the market I have yet to hear about anyone even using a fly rod let alone being competitive in a serious bass tournament.

Whatever the motivation for shorter, heavy line weight rods, Scott and Orvis have models in weird lengths too. The Orvis Recon 7' 11" 8wt is particularly nice IMO. I'm sure there are others out there too now.

 

[afishinado]

PennKev wrote:

troutbert wrote:

PennKev wrote:

As to a long rod making it easier to create line speed in heavier single hand applications, consider that one of the current fads in rods is sub-8ft 7wt+ rods geared towards bass and like/muskie fisherman.

What benefits are they stating for shortish fly rods for bass and muskie fishing?

I dunno. Gotta sell new rods somehow.

Honestly though, I've seen a few such rods first hand and they seem rather nice. I see some merit in having as light and handy of a rod as possible if you need to fish a heavy line weight. Shorter rods accomplish this.


Sage was the first to offer such rods and their sales pitch was that the rods were legal length to use in tournaments. However, after several years on the market I have yet to hear about anyone even using a fly rod let alone being competitive in a serious bass tournament.

Whatever the motivation for shorter, heavy line weight rods, Scott and Orvis have models in weird lengths too. The Orvis Recon 7' 11" 8wt is particularly nice IMO. I'm sure there are others out there too now.

Easier to fight and land fish, and easier to handle and store in a boat or kayak.

 

[afishinado]

Jessed wrote:
Is euro nymphing and tight line nymphing the same thing??

The words are often used interchangeably, but tight-line nymphing is one form of Euro nymphing. The best place I know to get a detail explanation of all these types of nymphing methods is George Daniels book titled Dynamic Nymphing.

It's really a great book that discusses in detail all types and techniques for nymphing > different Euro methods, high-sticking, indicator, etc.

 

[PhilC]

I didn't watch the Galloup clip yet but I was introduced to a drop shot rig in Utah a few years ago.
The guides called it a bounce rig:
-tie 2 blood, surgeons, etc knots about 18 inches apart with tippet that is 1 or 2 X below the tippet you're using
-tie 2 cinch knots above the 2 knots on the main leader. The knots keep the tippet from slipping off and the lighter tippet will break off before the main line
-at the end of the leader add your weight...the guides used a ton of shot typically
-also used large bobbers or balloons

We used he same rig larger rivers like the Green and also smaller creeks like Weber...it did well on both

The previous point about gradient is true for out west/Utah I believe. The current was flowing well out of these tailwaters but the depth changes were more subtle than we typically have here. So these rigs will get the flies down quickly and keep them on the bottom.
I've dabbled with them on some of our larger rivers and it hasn't panned out as well. With more drastic changes in depth and also large boulders etc. I found I lost the entire rig more often. These things are a pain to tie up so I reverted to my usual rigs.
That said I should give them a go again this year but I'm trying to stop changing for the sake of change...I can be a tinker-holic lol.
I also think these might help simulate the action (bounce) of scuds which we used a lot of.

 

[PennKev]

PhilC wrote:
The guides called it a bounce rig....

Bounce rigs and drop shot rigs are not synonymous. Bounce rigs utilize a drop shot configuration, but are not only the situation in which you can rig your leader and flies that way. Using a more typical amount of weight and a smaller sized indicator will produce good results on PA streams. The drop shot configuration is also well suited to tight line techniques.

For those who don't know what a bounce rig is, it an indicator rig that uses an large amount of weight (3-4 size BB or heavier shot) and the biggest thingamabobbers money can buy. The whole idea is that the shot drags the bottom while the buoyancy of the indicator keeps it popping or skipping along. The flies are positioned above the shot so the do not snag often, the round shot usually being able to be pulled free if they hit a snag. Rigs and flies are still occasionally lost even in ideal circumstances.

Yes, this rig casts like sh!t. Ideally you'd fish it out of a drift boat and you wouldn't have to cast often, maybe once every 50 yards or so to position your flies in the correct current lane.

Fortunately for us this method has nearly no application in PA. As Phil has found out, it's a good way to lose a lot of tackle on slower streams with constantly changing contours and structure. It doesn't even work welling high flows since all the snags are still down there... ...somewhere.

 

[Smokeypro]

I use "tight line" techniques. Been doing it since I was 10. Then I used a size 10 hook, split shot and meal worm. Have expanded to various tight line nymph techniques. Common factors include water column is bottom, weight to keep tension on line so you have sensitivity, minimum amount of line in water which reduces the feedback variables. Transitioning from spin gear to fly gear and maintaining same sensitivity required a few changes for me. I have two rods I use. 11.5 4wt and 11 3wt. Both different purposes. I also use a euro nymph line on my 11ft. Feels closer to monofilament. I use 15 ft+leader on my 11.5 (French style). The titles are irrelevant. I was looking for feel which for me translates into more hookups. Try all techniques and make them your own. Don't get hung up on the labels.

 

[jacob]

I just bought an 11' 4wt and am extremely pumped to use it this weekend. Same set up pretty much as you Smokeypro.

 

[jacob]

Figured I'd post again on this - been fishing a drop shot rig and/or heavy competition style flies for the past two weekends with the new rod and and have had great success - galloups rig here is definitely different than your typical euro methods, but that being said, combining the two dependent on situation has suited me well. I found even my heaviest flies weren't enough to get down fast enough at times, so I'd tie a drop shot tag with about 8" of lighter tippet from the eye of my point fly and put some sink putty on it. Just gotta put some overhand knots on the drop shot tag at the bottom to keep you weight on. It keeps the best connection to your flies for strike detection rather than weight above, though both definitely work. It was fun to try these new techniques and they have definitely become a great addition to the toolbox, so to speak.

 

[nomad_archer]

Cool deal Jacob. I use a blended approach for my rig. I use the Galloup perfection loop method for my dropper tags and then just tie an anchor fly on the bottom. I will add shot a different points on the leader to help me get down. I use a 10'-11' 3wt or 4wt geared towards nymphing with a monocore level nymphing line. The specialty equipment helps a a lot in my opinion. These techniques also work on other species. I was struggling a few weeks ago to get into some bass. I cast every streamer I had and stripped them and swung them many different ways. Finally I decided to more or less tightline a wooly bugger through a run on a 6wt with a shorter leader and WF line. I ended up catching a bunch of fish this way.

Glad to hear you are gaining some confidence with the techniques. There is no need to get tied up with terminology. Find what works for you and catch a pile of fish.

 

[jacob]

Thanks nomad-

I agree that the specialty equipment makes a huge difference- I too use a level monocore line (the rio European nymph line) and it super sensitive to takes.

If you haven't checked it out, I really recommend watching Modern Nymphing - the lance Egan and Devon Olsen jawn - really shortened the learning curve for all of the different techniques, random things that sound confusing but really aren't, and whatnot. One thing that has had a surprising amount of success for me is Devins tip to set the hook every time your fly finishes its swing before casting... I've caught several fish that I otherwise would probably have missed by the time I realized I had a take by doing it.

Good stuff!

 

[NewSal]

jacob wrote:
Thanks nomad-

I agree that the specialty equipment makes a huge difference- I too use a level monocore line (the rio European nymph line) and it super sensitive to takes.

Good stuff!

Go all the way and ditch the flyline all together, unless your competing a long 20'+ leader is for sure the best approach for the most sensitive, drag free nymph system.

 

[jacob]

Sal, I agree, though, I argue that a fly line is still necessary.

More often than not there is no fly line outside the guides, but some situations call for a longer cast- still though that only leaves maybe 1'-5' of fly line out the tip, mostly.

My leader has been anywhere from 15' on the short side up to about 22' or even longer.

 

[NewSal]

jacob wrote:
Sal, I agree, though, I argue that a fly line is still necessary.

More often than not there is no fly line outside the guides, but some situations call for a longer cast- still though that only leaves maybe 1'-5' of fly line out the tip, mostly.

My leader has been anywhere from 15' on the short side up to about 22' or even longer.

With practice, and a good rod, you can cast nothing but leader 30'.
If your target is further than your able to cast a mono rig, chances are a contact style nymphing technique isnt the best choice to begin with.
This is just my obvservations and opinions of course, anyone can fish whatever the hell way they want. I've just found that ditching the flyline all together is the best approach to a contact nymphing system.
When Im lazy and dont feel like removing the long contact leader and putting on a dry fly leader Ill even cast dry flys with a 20# contact leader. Its not for everyone, but it is neat to esentially high stick a dry fly over currents.

 

[jacob]

Interesting, I'll have to give it a go!