Bamboo

Doubles Dave
2 1/4 pound sunnies-1/2 pd
2 4pd bows =8 pds
helping with the math-
and they are clean takes not fouls.
 
pete41 wrote:
Doubles Dave
2 1/4 pound sunnies-1/2 pd
2 4pd bows =8 pds
helping with the math-
and they are clean takes not fouls.

Your math is only true when picking them up. While still in the water, much of the fight is against each other unless they are both foul hooked in the tail. Trout do not normally practice teamwork.

And why in the hell would i want to catch two 1/4 lb sunnies at the same time when I can walk 100 yards from my deck and easily catch several 1 1/4 lb sunnies, one at a time?

Sunnies don't fight well in tandem, either.;-)

Doubles are fine for perch and flounder when you are just fishing for food/ I've caught many doubles on flounder. First time out for the, it was two guys with two poles and two hooks each... 72 lbs of flounder in a few hours.

We actually had to start on the second cooler and the were large coolers and I'm sure you know how well flounder stack. I'd have caught more, but the beers kept getting warm before we could finish them so I had to pull both lines every time i wanted to drink the whole thing cold.

It took us longer to fillet them than it did to catch them and flounder have got to be the easiest fish in the world to fillet.

Caught a double on snapper blues once, and that was on a fly rod with a single fly. One snapper grabbed the fly, the other grabbed the first snapper by the tail and I landed them both that way. Top that! At least with that, they were working together.;-)
 
Regarding the action of bamboo rods. Some people have the idea that their action is slow, or club-like, or buggy whip sloppy, etc.

I don't fish bamboo rods, for financial reasons, and because I'm hard on tackle. But a friend of mine fishes them nearly all the time and has a bunch of them. I've cast them and they cast beautifully. Pretty fast action, which I like, and also very smooth.

And they are not super expensive. They cost about the same as what people pay for the high end graphite rods, i.e. around $800.

And there's the craftmanship involved in making them, and their beauty etc.

 
That's true Troutbert, especially with the newer stuff.
 
FD, you do realize that bamboo is far more gay than soccer, right? Not that there's anything wrong with it. :)
 
krayfish wrote:
FD, you do realize that bamboo is far more gay than soccer, right? Not that there's anything wrong with it. :)

Only the new stuff, and i wouldn't call it gay either, just elitist.

Not that there is anything wrong with that, either.

;-)

By the way, the hair on that guy in your avatar would make one heck of a ghillie suite.

 
certainly does add strength simply by acting as a filler and a glue. It is an integral part of the finished product and without it, you do not have a usable product....

I'm not real sure of myself here, going by what makes sense to me rather than knowledge. And regarding shear stress, I'm not quite sure of the base coordinate system on a rod shaped item. But I think the direction that it'd be weak without the resin could be described as "twisting".

A single carbon fiber may be brittle, but each strand is essentially a rope composed of millions of little carbon fibers, and that rope can be brittle or quite ductile depending on the grade and heat treatment, termed the "modulus". Higher modulus means the rope is stiffer and more brittle, low modulus means its more noodle like. All would be low modulus as they come from the factory, it's the heat treat that strengthens them, but I'm sure there's different grades that can achieve different modulus with different heat treatments.... The rod itself is thus made up of a high number of these ropes.

Now imagine several different stresses. First, is crushing or "collapse" stress. The transverse fibers provide most of that strength I think. Remember the blank is hollow, and those transverse fibers form relatively stiff/strong circles to support the longitudinal fibers which make up the circumference of the rod.

Shear stress: In the coordinate system I'm considering, this would be like if you held the handle, and pulled the rod tip to a 90 degree angle to the rod, like a fly line does when casting. The strength is supplied by the longitudinal fibers running the length of the rod, and their modulus is what gives you the action. However, those "ropes" would have a tendency to move during the action, i.e. separate or squeeze together, and this is prevented mostly by those same transverse fibers locking the strands into place, though it may be that resin plays a part here too.

Twisting strength: If you took two separate parts of the rod and twisted, like wringing a towel. The carbon fiber "ropes", both longitudinal and transverse, provide very little support here, this is the critical application of the resin.

So, again, in my understanding, you are right the rod wouldn't be very usable without the resin. But the strength of the rod is mostly the carbon fiber. Keep in mind, the rod is expected to move, so the resins they are choosing have to be ductile, i.e. it can't crack when you try to cast! Which means they probably aren't providing much stiffness to the rod.
 
ok, time to drop some science on ya'll. ;-)

(A disclaimer first: My degree was aerospace, focussed on structural stuff, but I haven't touched it in 20ish years, have been in a manufacturing environment instead...so I'm a little rusty, this is all off the top of my head...)




Think of your rod blank as one of those very simple, woven 'Chinese finger traps.' You know, those things that are basically a tube made up of woven strips of paper or whatever.

A fiber has absolutely no strength in compression, tension only. I can easily hang from a rope, but in no way can it support me like the legs of your chair do. Those finger traps are basically what you would have if your rod blank didn't have any resin/epoxy/bonding agent in the mix. What you have are a bunch of loose fibres woven together and able to move independently. The resins are needed to bond the fibers together to make them behave in the desired fashion, otherwise it's just a loose weave that will buckle and collapse on a whim once any sort bending stress is introduced. (The sheath of a braided rope is another example if you remove the core material...)

All a fishing rod is (in engineering terms), is a flexible beam, much like the spar in an airplane wing, or even as basic as a simple tapered flag pole. Mathematically they're all modeled as a simple flexible beam when you pare it all down.

The beauty of rod design is when you begin playing with the material properties to get the action you desire. With bamboo, this involves the meticulous craft of planing the raw strips to their desired tapers down to within .001" all along their length, adding and taking away material where desired to achieve the intended action of the rod.

With the modern composites, whether it be glass or carbon based, this can be done by varying the layering schedule of the cloths used when rolling the blanks. Adjust where certain layers are introduced or detracted and you can fine tune which sections of the rod come into play depending upon the load introduced. Can also play with the desired action by keeping the layering schedule of the cloth consistent throughout and altering the taper of the mandrel, which then affects the cross sectional area (diameter) of the rod along it's length, thus affecting its stiffness and flex properties. I imagine both of these come into play with modern rod design.

If you were to mic and then graph the taper of your composite rod, I doubt you'd end up with a straight line from the grip to the tip. You should find swells and changing rates of taper as you progress towards the tip, beefier near the ferrules for example. And if you also took a saw and sectioned it at 6" increments, you'd probably find varying wall thickness throughout the length, indicative of a variable layering schedule. (Cane rods achieve this by using the base of the culm for the butt section of a rod, lots of power fibers, while tip sections are split out of what would've been the top of the stalk w/ it's less densely packed fibers.)

Regarding composite rod construction, I'm not exactly sure how it's done. Sounds to me like PCray is describing pre-preg sheets of carbon, where the bonding agent is integral to the raw cloth. This cloth is wrapped around the tapered mandrel, with a release agent in between and then I guess that gets wrapped with the 'plastic' sleeve Pat describes. This all goes into an autoclave and is cooked under pressure, causing the resin bonding agent to infiltrate the weave and fully impregnate the blank. By introducing the resins you have now introduced a carrier that prevents the collapse of the fibers while under compression, see to the rope analogy above.

When you introduce a bending moment in any object, some of the material's structure is stretched under tension, while some is compressed and some remains in a 'neutral' state that sees no load. You need the bonding agent to prevent the compressed fibers from buckling. In your rod, let's say you're fighting a fish, these would be the fibers on the guide side of the rod and the fibers opposite the guides are under tension in this scenario. The fibers under tension are the ones that return your rod to it's original unbent, neutral state. I don't know much about modulus ratings, but I'd hazard to guess that these numbers have something to do with how quickly the stretched fibers return to their neutral state. Higher modulus = higher rate of return to normalcy I imagine, and thus a 'faster' rod. In the world of bamboo, this is where flaming comes into play. By flaming the raw culm, you're cooking & carmelizing the sugars that bond the power fibers, along with further removing excess moisture, making these sugars more brittle (stiffer) and thus increasing the 'modulus' of the bamboo.

This is also why it's important to find the 'spine' of a rod blank before finishing it out. You want the spine in line w/ the guides. Otherwise, if you have the timing of the spine off, let's say 90 degrees worst case, then you're gonna have a rod that favors throwing an automatic mend into every cast due to the way the off kilter spine pulls the tip either left or right as the rod is flexed.

As a note, over time, all rods will become 'softer' with use. And this involves a breakdown of the bond between your power fibres and the bonding agent. In cane rods, it's a natural breakdown as the power fibers separate from the inner pith and each other, in composites it's a breakdown of the bond between the epoxy and the fibers. Eventually (and this will take years and years and years to happen), this bond will become weak enough that it no longer supports the fibers under compression during flexure and it'll either simply buckle at the weak spot, or snap in two catastrophically.


And all of that is why I much prefer fishing cane. One of the reasons I fish is to escape all of this modernity, and to me it just doesn't feel right to be out there experiencing raw Mother Nature with some space age piece of plastic in my hand. I much prefer the organic nature of a cane rod, the beauty instilled in it by a highly skilled craftsmen and I think they cast so, so, so much better than those lifeless CAD designed, mass produced sticks that pass for flyrods nowadays.


So, yeah, pick this apart if ya'll want, just shooting from the hip, thinking out loud for the most part...it's too damn hot out and I'm killing time before le Tour comes on the T.V...
 
pretty good. FWIW, my degree is in Materials Science and Engineering, but carbon fiber is not my specialty, and I'm shooting from the hip too. But there is one part where I think you're slightly off base.

A fiber has absolutely no strength in compression, tension only. I can easily hang from a rope, but in no way can it support me like the legs of your chair do. Those finger traps are basically what you would have if your rod blank didn't have any resin/epoxy/bonding agent in the mix.

True in the untempered condition, a carbon fiber is like a rope, or a wet noodle. However, when tempered that all changes, and a carbon fiber thread becomes quite stiff, more like a rod, even without any resin at all.

Structurally, a "carbon fiber" itself is a thread made up of millions of tiny graphene tubes, each of them VERY stiff (like, diamond stiff), but of course since there's millions that are relatively weakly connected, and the joints between them are like millions of "hinges", making the macro structure ropelike. When baked, all of these little fibers cross-link with one another, to create a stiffer structure. So the heat does far more than melt the resin, it also alters the structure of the carbon fiber threads themselves.

So, once heat treated, a single carbon fiber does indeed have some strength in compression! But I agree the resin is needed to bond the fibers together. The macro-fibers may be stiff, but they're still unconnected or at least weakly connected to one another. Imagine a stack of drinking straws unbonded to each other. The resin holds them in place.

Modulus, in any material (as in Young's Modulus), is a measure of elasticity, the equation is stress/strain. On a stress-strain curve, it is the slope prior to the yield point of the material. Elasticity, of course, is how much the material will non-permanently deform. Rubber bands and springs are examples of highly elastic (low modulus) materials, they can be deformed quite considerably without permanently altering the structure. All materials do this to some degree. A high modulus material is stiffer, more brittle, and less "stretchy".

As you said, when a rod is cast, the carbon fibers on one side are in tension, and on the other in compression. A high modulus will allow less "stretch" in tension and less compression on the other side, therefore limiting the movement of the rod, making the rod stiffer.

Now, as for the action of a rod, modulus of the carbon fiber would be only one variable a maker could play with to make a fly rod faster or slower. A thousand rubber bands under 10 lbs of force deform less than 1 rubber band would. Thread density and thickness, thickness of the walls, taper, etc. all come into play. But a high modulus graphite would allow the designer to use less material to achieve a desired stiffness, making the rod lighter. But also more brittle.

FWIW, I'm a metals guy. The success of metals has to do with toughness. On a stress strain curve, it's the area under the curve, a measure of the energy the material can absorb before catastrophic failure.

Metals aren't as strong as ceramics, but much tougher. Take a diamond, the strongest material on Earth, and hit it with a hammer. You get diamond powder. Hit a hunk of steel with a hammer, you might leave a dent.
 
I’m just a simple Environmental Engineer and bamboo is sustainable/renewable and Eco-friendly material (LOL).

Joe E
 
Glad I am a dumb prison guard.
 
That would be Corrections Officer. I have one Bamboo rod that I fish once in a while with dry flys. I like Bamboo but it requires a little extra care.
 
Pcray....one quick point, if you heat the fiber and lock it all together thru heat tempering, don't you now in effect have a carbon rod, not a flexible fiber? Rod vs fiber, semantics I know....

I have all sorts of raw carbon cloth and unidirectional stuff in the basement from when I was into model sailplanes, and none of it will support a compressive load until I manipulate it in some way.
 
Dear Wulff,

Wow, my head hurts!

To answer your question, I fish with bamboo. I also fish with fiberglass and graphite rods as well.

As far as I am concerned no one material is perfect for every situation. None of my rods with the exception of my 8 weights on up are used for a specific type of fishing.

I fish dries, wets, nymphs, and streamers on all of my lighter rods regardless of their construction. The behavior and patterns of the fish dictate which type of fly I use at a given time.

Some of the rods I own are admittedly better suited to say, nymphing or streamer fishing, but with a bit of adaptation and rod work on my part they all can do whatever I ask of them.

Having said all that, if I had my druthers I would fish bamboo exclusively. I'm sure that this will sound like a load of crap to many people, and I am fine with that, for I felt the same way for a long time. In my mind there is just something about fishing with a bamboo rod and feeling the fish on the end of the line that makes catching a fish a bit more special.

Regards,

Tim Murphy :)
 
I'd fish it if I had the money get parts for my "stick." It's at least a stick until It has guides and a handle. I have a feeling it will never get done.
 
In reply to original question: Yes, only bamboo, fresh water or salt.
 
Pcray....one quick point, if you heat the fiber and lock it all together thru heat tempering, don't you now in effect have a carbon rod, not a flexible fiber? Rod vs fiber, semantics I know....

Yep. But its not black and white, flexible vs. stiff is a continuous scale, and they're mostly playing with degrees of gray.

I have all sorts of raw carbon cloth and unidirectional stuff in the basement from when I was into model sailplanes, and none of it will support a compressive load until I manipulate it in some way.

I assume you are heat treating it in some manner, or else its a totally different animal. But unidirectional is one key there. And keep in mind, there are many variables in these things to play with. Diameter of fibers, density of fibers, modulus... And within a given material, you can use different heat treatments to dial in the desired stiffness vs. flexibility that you want. And thats just in one direction, the cross-directional fibers can be different stuff to make the desired properties. One of the draws of carbon fiber is that by changing all these variables and the heat treat, you have a wide range of choices in the final properties you want, from ceramic like stiff to cloth like flexible.

 
Split a piece of vintage Tonkin bamboo, "Arundinaria Amabilis" (lovely reed), a beautiful, natural substance in itself; straighten the strips over an open flame; now heat-temper the bamboo to strengthen it and give it life; miter the strips to precisely tapered 60 degree segments; glue six strips together to form a butt and six more for each tip (so neatly the glue lines are all but invisible). Now attach nickel silver ferrules, fashioned by hand from precision tubing with the aid of some silver solder and a lathe; glue on some premium cork rings and shape it into a grip; add a reel seat (handmade from pieces of metal and a carved piece of walnut which has been given five coats of hand-rubbed varnish). Now straighten the rod sections (again over a flame). wind on guides (impeccably); then varnish the finished rod so that it has the appearance of polished glass. So far we have skimmed over some fourty-five hours of handwork spread over a period of months ... such is the making of a T&T bamboo rod.

Four figures will get you started. GG

 
gulfgreyhound wrote:
Split a piece of vintage...(lotsa poetic jazz)...such is the making of a T&T bamboo rod.

Four figures will get you started. GG

Yeah? Browse Craigslist long enough, and you can come in for a couple of Old Hickories.

 

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