Bamboo

[pcray1231]

but I know of nobody who used a "shrink wrap type" coating on cane.

Ok, first I recognize it doesn't matter, this is educational and all and in reality whether its a plastic or not doesn't mean a lick. But the shrink wrap is used on graphite sticks, not cane, and its not a coating, it's removed at the end. I'm not quite sure whether the resins you are talking about are the ones used in making carbon fibers (which are baked off to make the fibers essentially "pure" carbon), or the ones used by the fly rod manufacturers in the finished product (which do remain). I'll assume the latter.

I have "played" with graphite sheets and made rudimentary graphite parts. It's as it comes from the factory, the same as is used in fly rods (though modulus, type of resins, etc. was was likely different).

It comes on a roll and resembles a black cloth, with paper backing. Starting at the opposite side of the paper, you have a layer of longitudinal carbon fibers (the fibers are a composite in some, like the boron stuff), and then you have a layer of transverse fibers. Sometimes these are 2 separate layers, sometimes they are woven together. The transverse fibers can be more carbon fiber, but are often fiberglass or a composite.

At the bottom, nearest the paper, is a thin layer of resin. I assume this is what you mean by the plastic, and yes, it can be a plastic, but I know they're experimenting with other materials.

The cloth is cut to shape, the paper is removed, and it's wrapped around a form and secured. For a fishing rod it is likely a tapered steel rod. If not for the form, it would be floppy and collapsable.

Now they wrap a plastic "shrink wrap" type covering around it, and stick it in the furnace. What happens is that the resins melt, the graphite and resin expand, and the plastic covering shrinks but does not melt, creating pressure. The combination of heat and pressure cross links the carbon fibers within each macro-fiber, making them stiff. With stiff fibers, woven or at least layered at 90 degrees, even without the resin, this structure would not collapse, and it'd be quite strong, but it may twist. The resin is the "glue" that holds the carbon fibers together.

After tempering, the plastic wrap is removed, and the blank is sanded (Scott, I think, doesn't even sand). Some companies put a varnish on, some don't (G. Loomis), preferring the matte look of the sanded blank.

You are right, the resin is not purely cosmetic, but it doesn't add strength or prevent collapse either. After tempering, the transverse fibers are plenty stiff to handle this task. The resin is essentially a glue or a filler. Yes, you could make the comparison of rebar in concrete, however, in this case the rebar makes up the vast majority of the volume and almost all of the structural inegrity, and all the concrete does is fill the gaps and help hold things in place.

At least that is my understanding, now tell me where I'm wrong.

 

[pete41]

Practical as in not club like.

 

[Rolf]

I've been known to fish it.

 

[pafisherman]

I pretty much fish bamboo these days... And I have actually seen Rolf catch a fish on a bamboo rod....

Bill

 

[outsider]

I fish both bamboo and "plastic" rods. I prefer bamboo rods under 7'-9" because of the weight factor. Sometimes I feel like fishing a bamboo rod, other times I go to the "dark side".

 

[Rolf]

pafisherman wrote:
I pretty much fish bamboo these days... And I have actually seen Rolf catch a fish on a bamboo rod....

Bill

1998? I forget, it's been awhile..........

 

[BrookieBuster101]

I fish bamboo quite a bit, especially with drys. But these days im focusing on nymphing and i have found the slow action makes this difficult.

 

[FrequentTyer]

I really love bamboo, and just built my first bamboo rod (7.5 ft 4 wt) last month. I started with graphite, dabbled with fiberglass, but the bamboo is what I really enjoy fishing. The presentation seems softer, and when nymphing I can feel whats going on much better. The accuracy is fantastic. Cane rods are actually much more durable, and if they break, I can fix them! I honestly can't see a downside (other than cost). I'm already starting to building #2.

 

[afishinado]

pcray1231 wrote:

but I know of nobody who used a "shrink wrap type" coating on cane.

Ok, first I recognize it doesn't matter, this is educational and all and in reality whether its a plastic or not doesn't mean a lick. But the shrink wrap is used on graphite sticks, not cane, and its not a coating, it's removed at the end. I'm not quite sure whether the resins you are talking about are the ones used in making carbon fibers (which are baked off to make the fibers essentially "pure" carbon), or the ones used by the fly rod manufacturers in the finished product (which do remain). I'll assume the latter.

I have "played" with graphite sheets and made rudimentary graphite parts. It's as it comes from the factory, the same as is used in fly rods (though modulus, type of resins, etc. was was likely different).

It comes on a roll and resembles a black cloth, with paper backing. Starting at the opposite side of the paper, you have a layer of longitudinal carbon fibers (the fibers are a composite in some, like the boron stuff), and then you have a layer of transverse fibers. Sometimes these are 2 separate layers, sometimes they are woven together. The transverse fibers can be more carbon fiber, but are often fiberglass or a composite.

At the bottom, nearest the paper, is a thin layer of resin. I assume this is what you mean by the plastic, and yes, it can be a plastic, but I know they're experimenting with other materials.

The cloth is cut to shape, the paper is removed, and it's wrapped around a form and secured. For a fishing rod it is likely a tapered steel rod. If not for the form, it would be floppy and collapsable.

Now they wrap a plastic "shrink wrap" type covering around it, and stick it in the furnace. What happens is that the resins melt, the graphite and resin expand, and the plastic covering shrinks but does not melt, creating pressure. The combination of heat and pressure cross links the carbon fibers within each macro-fiber, making them stiff. With stiff fibers, woven or at least layered at 90 degrees, even without the resin, this structure would not collapse, and it'd be quite strong, but it may twist. The resin is the "glue" that holds the carbon fibers together.

After tempering, the plastic wrap is removed, and the blank is sanded (Scott, I think, doesn't even sand). Some companies put a varnish on, some don't (G. Loomis), preferring the matte look of the sanded blank.

You are right, the resin is not purely cosmetic, but it doesn't add strength or prevent collapse either. After tempering, the transverse fibers are plenty stiff to handle this task. The resin is essentially a glue or a filler. Yes, you could make the comparison of rebar in concrete, however, in this case the rebar makes up the vast majority of the volume and almost all of the structural inegrity, and all the concrete does is fill the gaps and help hold things in place.

At least that is my understanding, now tell me where I'm wrong.

Pat describes the process very well above.

Bamboo, fiberglass or graphite all catch fish....it's all just a matter of personal preference.

 

[afishinado]

For our engineer / material engineer geeks - microscopic pics of carbon fibers and C-fibers bonded with resin. The rebar and concrete analogy by Pat was a good one (pic 2).

 

[FarmerDave]

pcray1231 wrote:

but I know of nobody who used a "shrink wrap type" coating on cane.

Ok, first I recognize it doesn't matter, this is educational and all and in reality whether its a plastic or not doesn't mean a lick. But the shrink wrap is used on graphite sticks, not cane, and its not a coating, it's removed at the end. I'm not quite sure whether the resins you are talking about are the ones used in making carbon fibers (which are baked off to make the fibers essentially "pure" carbon), or the ones used by the fly rod manufacturers in the finished product (which do remain). I'll assume the latter.

I have "played" with graphite sheets and made rudimentary graphite parts. It's as it comes from the factory, the same as is used in fly rods (though modulus, type of resins, etc. was was likely different).

It comes on a roll and resembles a black cloth, with paper backing. Starting at the opposite side of the paper, you have a layer of longitudinal carbon fibers (the fibers are a composite in some, like the boron stuff), and then you have a layer of transverse fibers. Sometimes these are 2 separate layers, sometimes they are woven together. The transverse fibers can be more carbon fiber, but are often fiberglass or a composite.

At the bottom, nearest the paper, is a thin layer of resin. I assume this is what you mean by the plastic, and yes, it can be a plastic, but I know they're experimenting with other materials.

The cloth is cut to shape, the paper is removed, and it's wrapped around a form and secured. For a fishing rod it is likely a tapered steel rod. If not for the form, it would be floppy and collapsable.

Now they wrap a plastic "shrink wrap" type covering around it, and stick it in the furnace. What happens is that the resins melt, the graphite and resin expand, and the plastic covering shrinks but does not melt, creating pressure. The combination of heat and pressure cross links the carbon fibers within each macro-fiber, making them stiff. With stiff fibers, woven or at least layered at 90 degrees, even without the resin, this structure would not collapse, and it'd be quite strong, but it may twist. The resin is the "glue" that holds the carbon fibers together.

After tempering, the plastic wrap is removed, and the blank is sanded (Scott, I think, doesn't even sand). Some companies put a varnish on, some don't (G. Loomis), preferring the matte look of the sanded blank.

You are right, the resin is not purely cosmetic, but it doesn't add strength or prevent collapse either. After tempering, the transverse fibers are plenty stiff to handle this task. The resin is essentially a glue or a filler. Yes, you could make the comparison of rebar in concrete, however, in this case the rebar makes up the vast majority of the volume and almost all of the structural inegrity, and all the concrete does is fill the gaps and help hold things in place.

At least that is my understanding, now tell me where I'm wrong.

Pat, I realized I misread your "Shrink Wrap" comment after posting the earlier, but by then it was too late to change it.

the great thing about these discussions is there is something to learn from them nearly every time.

And of course whether it is plastic or not doesn't mean a lick, but it is still plastic.

And of course it is about choice, not about which is better or more durable. Otherwise i probably wouldn't be using cane.

 

[FarmerDave]

pete41 wrote:
Practical as in not club like.

You must have seen my bamboo bass rod. I think it would be quite appealing to a Neanderthal.;-)

 

[FarmerDave]

BrookieBuster101 wrote:
I fish bamboo quite a bit, especially with drys. But these days im focusing on nymphing and i have found the slow action makes this difficult.

BrookieBuster, I find th eopposite to be true, and I believe the old timers did too. The fast action rods were created for dry fly. The old wet fly rods (down and across) were like buggy whips.

I also find roll casting to be much easier with a slower action.

I prefer casting by feel rather than trying to time by sight or whatever. I can feel a bamboo rod load a whole lot easier.

Slow action is great for steelhead. not only for casting, but also it is more forgiving (for the tippet) on the hook set.

IMHO of course.

 

[pete41]

Maybe in the east but out west I found the fastest action sage and fenwicks to be the best tool for multiple,heavily weighted nymph rigs.You don't really cast them as much as lob and softer action meant more hang ups.

 

[FarmerDave]

pete41 wrote:
Maybe in the east but out west I found the fastest action sage and fenwicks to be the best tool for multiple,heavily weighted nymph rigs.You don't really cast them as much as lob and softer action meant more hang ups.

That might be true, but in reality, that doesn't sound much different than chuck and duck for steelhead, and I can do that with a bamboo pole from my apple picker.

Seriously though, I never was big fan of the multiple fly rigs. they work, and I do use them on occasion. But if I am catching fish with a single I stick with that.

 

[mcwillja]

Two years ago I purchased a Headwaters deluxe bamboo rod. I got a good discount through the mail. Not exactly vintage bamboo but a good rod so far nonetheless. I really enjoy fishing cane this time of year using tricos, midges, and ants/beetles.

 

[Wulff]

Jonas's in house rod maker is Mr. Downes. I'll be at the Feathered Hook in Oct. Love that place.

 

[FarmerDave]

pcray1231 wrote:

At least that is my understanding, now tell me where I'm wrong.

that sounds like a challenge.

Here's one.

You are right, the resin is not purely cosmetic, [color=990000]but it doesn't add strength[/color] or prevent collapse either. After tempering, the transverse fibers are plenty stiff to handle this task. The resin is essentially a glue or a filler. Yes, you could make the comparison of rebar in concrete, however, in this case the rebar makes up the vast majority of the volume and almost all of the structural inegrity, and all the concrete does is fill the gaps and help hold things in place.

I trust your overall description, and thanks for the lesson. I did learn a lot. . But it does seem to contradict what I highlighted above. I'll admit I overestimated the importance of the resin to get a rise out of some people. However, after learning much from this exercise, it looks to me like you are still underestimating the importance of the resin. I could be wrong. Whether some kind of plastic resin is used, or some other material… It certainly does add strength simply by acting as a filler and a glue. It is an integral part of the finished product and without it, you do not have a usable product. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Carbon fibers are very strong, but also very “brittle.” The photos provided in this thread even say that. Based on that… Without the “glue and filler,” what would happen the first time to flex a blank that was made entirely of carbon fibers? I’m betting it would break, and fairly easily. I’d speculate that as you flex it, the longitudinal fibers on the outside would see tremendous stresses without the “filler and glue.” That is if you could build a blank entirely made up of carbon fibers. I’m not sure you can, at least not one that would work.

Have you ever had a fly rod where the outer resin is damaged fro strapping it on the 4 wheeler or whatever. Rubbed off, chipped, or otherwise damaged? It creates a significant weak spot even though it may not have actually damaged any fibers.

Also, I’d speculate that one could probably build a blank with just resin and a mold. It could be made quite stiff depending on the resin, but if so I’m betting it would have very little sheer strength depending on what resin. Once could also make one entirely of various plastics that would be fairly strong, but would lack stiffness.

The combination of the fibers and resin is what makes it work.

Take the concrete example which you seemed to like even tough it was admittedly not a great example (but better than dry wall and paint;-)). I'm not a structural engineer, but I do know the classic formula is 321. That 3 parts gravel, 2 parts sand, and 1 part cement. The cement is the glue that holds it all together. I’m pretty sure cement by itself is fairly brittle. The strength is in the other contents which add strength in different ways, but without the cement, what do you have? Rebar adds to the sheer strength. Pre-stress that rebar, and you can even make it somewhat flexible and stronger. I might be mixing up my strength terms. It wouldn’t be the first time, and if so, forgive me. Like I said, I'm not a structural engineer, and it’s been awhile since I stayed at a Holliday Inn Express.

 

[pete41]

pete41 wrote: Maybe in the east but out west I found the fastest action sage and fenwicks to be the best tool for multiple,heavily weighted nymph rigs.You don't really cast them as much as lob and softer action meant more hang ups. That might be true, but in reality, that doesn't sound much different than chuck and duck for steelhead, and I can do that with a bamboo pole from my apple picker. Seriously though, I never was big fan of the multiple fly rigs. they work, and I do use them on occasion. But if I am catching fish with a single I stick with that.

You mean you wouldn't enjoy catching multiple doubles of 4 to 5 pound rainbows during the spring rainbow spawning run on the Missouri ?
You are a purist sir and I salute you.
Plastics ruled.The bamboos were fun on small cricks during run-off
both had their place IMHO.

 

[FarmerDave]

pete41 wrote:

You mean you wouldn't enjoy catching multiple doubles of 4 to 5 pound rainbows during the spring rainbow spawning run on the Missouri ?
You are a purist sir and I salute you.

It has more to do with the frustration of tangles and foul hookups outweighing catching a couple more fish.

The first time I ever used a tandem, the fist fish I caught was foul hooked by the drop. It was a wild brown.

If i was worried about catching more fish, I'd break out the DuPont spinner.

I'll occasionally use dual for steelhead when things are tough. Most of those get foul hooked several times anyway. What's one more.;-)