13,000 Gallon Frack Fluid Spill in Penn Township, Lycoming

I think it's important not to be hostile about the very idea of any fracking taking place. It's a technology that can be used without ripping and running. I agree that there are some places that should be just plain off-limits. But most of the problems from fracking are from doing it wrong- carelessness, cheaping out, etc.

And the oil/gas industry IS feeling pressure from the public, in the aftermath of the BP oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico.

So the other thing to do is to not be completely fatalistic that all resistance/oversight/regulation is futile.

But we need to make sure not to waste our efforts early on, by crying wolf.

Beyond the pollution threat, another problem has to do with water withdrawals. I think that it should be a high priority to learn what the industry plans to do in order to minimize the adverse consequences.

For instance, it should be fairly obvious that it's much less of a problem to take water from a stream during the high water conditions of springtime than it is at any other time of the year. Also, for some of the sites in NW Pa., pretty much the only thing that prevents the industry from using a source like Lake Erie instead is the added expense.

I don't think that the oil/gas company engineers are evil. But they do tend to have different priorities, and they're bound to have gaps in their knowledge base. They're more attuned to thinking of the earth as a bank vault instead of a source of life. So they may need some education. In terms of environmental consequences, what works with no big problem in Wyoming often doesn't work in Pennsylvania. If they don't get that, they need to.

I'm fine with the idea that the industry ought to get as much gas out of the Marcellus shale as possible- as long as they don't cause long-term damage or collapse of ecosystems in their wake.

But that's a big if. Because I do think that poisoning wells and watercourses is a crime. A crime as in felony- not a civil offense.
 
Hi Osprey,
I believe it was the accident in Black Moshannon that caused Rendell to put a moratorium on allowing new leases in the PA state lands/parks. Here is a link (there are better articles with more details-I can find them again and attach, if you'd like): http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/23793198/detail.html. It is my understanding that hours went by before the crew called for help which was considered seriously negligent and resulted in a fine just under $400,000.00.
Missy
 
Hi Barbless,
I appreciate all the time, thought, and effort you put into your recent postings! Just a couple of things... The chemicals in the frac fluid range in toxicity but it contains carcinogens, endocrine disruptors, and chemicals that cause neurological problems, kidney problems, etc. You may want to read the post about "what is in the frac fluid?" for a link to a chemical list. And, I would say, knowing what is in the frac fluid and knowing that I don't know what is in the proprietary ingredients, I would believe that a 15,000 gallon spill of frac fluid is quite serious. It is also important to consider the ramifications of storing the frac waste water in lined reservoirs, open to all sorts of environmental conditions, and the possibility of the waste water entering the ground in this way.

It is this sense of not knowing where the drilling companies priorities lay (or perhaps it's knowing, Chesapeake energy has already sold some of their American mineral rights to a company from China) and accident after accident, violation after violation, and knowing that the gas companies are exempt for the Clean Water Act that causes me concern. My husband's aunt is considering selling her mineral rights to a Marcellus well drilling company. She has a surface gas well and has NO idea the difference between the two. It will be interesting to see what she does...and if she does, what happens after that.

As far as the drilling companies not being evil. Of course, any rational person would agree, but then you read articles like the one below from the Wall Street Journal and to know that Halliburton and Enron are participants in this endeavor can make even the most rational person wonder.

Chesapeake is probably the worst offender.

http://online.wsj.com/article/AP8633e7e25e1d44f4b800fee74e27b56f.html?KEYWORDS=marcellus+shale

As always, my main concern is for our public lands and the fish that live in the streams/rivers within them.

-Missy
 
Missy wrote:
As far as the drilling companies not being evil. Of course, any rational person would agree,...

Dang! I thought we were in agreement. :cool:
 
I will take you at your word that what you said is true which begs the question, what is insurance other than a giant scam?

Absolutely not. I administer the payment of millions and millions of dollars to policy holders every year. The entity simply needs to have the proper protection in the form of an Environmental Policy and/or Pollution Liability Form. Your homeowners policy is rated to protect the average risk faced by home ownership, not provide coverage for multi-million dollar drilling operations in your back yard.

Regarding my statement of discharging judgments via bankruptcy, this probably would not occur in an event such as this, given that homeowners leasing land likely have assets exceeding exemption thresholds, not to mention the gas income from well production.

Having said that, we all know the companies themselves should be held responsible for their actions.
 
David/Missy............$400,000.00 should allow for an additional inspector or 2 for a year with change. This might be the news story my fishing friend saw and was asking me about. It was around the same time that bikerfish posted about the moratorium.
 
Dear jdaddy,

I was being a little sarcastic with my remarks about insurance being a giant scam but I also suspect I was none too clear about what I was wondering.

I'm not so concerned about what my individual insurance would cover as someone who had my property damaged as much as I am concerned about what the polluter's insurance would cover?

This probably isn't the best venue to discuss that concern but I had hoped that a pollution event generated by the drilling company would be covered by their insurance or a performance bond?

I know there has to be some kind of safeguard, or is that just wishful thinking?

Regards,

Tim Murphy :)
 
Another suggestion for monitoring fracking operations: remote cameras trained on the most damage-prone parts of the operations. Maybe even hooked up to the Internet.

Chemical sensors placed in the soil can work in much the same way.
 
I was being a little sarcastic with my remarks about insurance being a giant scam but I also suspect I was none too clear about what I was wondering.

Humor and/or sarcasm is lost with insurance professionals! LOL!

This probably isn't the best venue to discuss that concern but I had hoped that a pollution event generated by the drilling company would be covered by their insurance or a performance bond?

Yes, the drilling corps would have the necessary environmental liability coverage. That was kind of my point, in that the appropriate property should be held liable for damages. Trying to pass the liability to the property owner just wouldn't work, though frankly it probably should and would certainly make folks think about what they are doing a little more and have a vested interest in making sure that the activities on their property are as safe as can be. A performance bond wouldn't be relevant to such an event.
 
Dear jdaddy,

Thank you for a professional's perspective.

A lot of internet blowhard's like myself are certain we know everything, it's good to know there are actually people who do know what folks like myself don't! ;-)

Regards,

Tim Murphy :)
 
Good debate.

I'm with Pcray on this one.
 
A lot of internet blowhard's like myself are certain we know everything, it's good to know there are actually people who do know what folks like myself don't!

Insurance is about the only thing I know. Just ask my wife!

I did go to a symposium a couple weeks ago that was specifically to address the the implications of MS drilling on the insurance industry. Big bad Chesapeake was there giving their perspective, a PA state park rep, Saul Ewing law firm, etc. Interestingly PA DEP had no one present. You should have heard the hot air that Chesapeake blew. They were bragging that their actives are so safe that "even school districts are selling their mineral right to us." Jeeeezzz.



Below is an interesting article on very recent impacts to well water:

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/east/2010/09/17/113322.htm

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/east/2010/11/01/114497.htm

Explosions resulting in death:

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/southeast/2010/06/08/110532.htm

This is very disturbing and has not really been on many folks radars. Earthquakes possibly related to MS drilling. The first article is about 7 earthquakes in TX associated with the drilling. Last week there was an earthquake in WV attributed to MS drilling activities. Folks it is getting close to home.

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/southcentral/2009/07/27/102529.htm


I can't find the article I read about the WV incident at the moment. I will find it and post it. So, those of you in the MS drilling areas may be incurring extra out of pocket expenses for earthquake insurance.
 
thanks for the links jdaddy! very interesting stuff there.
 
I thought Murph's comments were kinda like people who say if you want to stop the wars abroad, institute a draft. That is, the public will be complacent until their particular interests are at stake.
 
Dear Jack,

That's part of what I was saying but not quite everything.

If you benefit disproportionately to your contributions you should have to pay more. That is why I said money from the lessor's should be escrowed to pay for damages to roads, bridges, and the environment.

What I am proposing is similar to what is often done when private developers propose projects that impact the infrastructure. A good example is the $ 7,000,000 Cabela's paid to improve Route 61 near their Hamburg, PA store. They couldn't build until the commitment was made to upgrade the road at no cost to the local and State governments.

Regards,

Tim Murphy :)
 
Jdaddy
Excellent links & info! Thank you!
 
I found this instance of South Fayette banning drilling in areas not zoned commercial/industrial. http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10322/1104009-57.stm
-Missy
 
jdaddy..........those links were great , excellent info and timed just about perfect for the coming of the Marcellus Project to central Pa big time. The only earthquake i ever experienced was in Elizabethtown Pa , Lancaster county , in the 80's sometime it was about a 3.0 on the Richter scale and what was really weird was the sideways movement.
 
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