13,000 Gallon Frack Fluid Spill in Penn Township, Lycoming

The tax can be structured to require it to go ONLY into the fund that supports vigilant oversight and remediation.

And you're letting your trust of government and workers cloud your judgement. Ok, lets say we make this fund and amazingly it doesn't get robbed by politicians looking for $ for other programs. Now we have all these hired inspectors. Great! What's their motivation to do a good job? The fund is there, and unless they screw up royally, they have a paycheck whether they do the job well or not. These sights are spread out all over the place in remote locations, so there's not going to be supervision on site. It's far easier for all parties involved to simply show up, check off the list that you checked this and that, and go home. Avoids confrontation, which is a motivation innate in humans.

Do we hire inspectors to make sure the inspectors are doing their jobs? No, the easiest motivation is to make their pay, or their department's pay, or whatever, dependent on finding fault. If there is no fault, well, then we don't need that many inspectors.

The key to getting everyone to play nice together is to set up the system so that the motivations are correct. I agree with a base tax to get the system set up. But beyond that:

#1. Companies have to really PAY for screw ups and be rewarded for good behavior. I'm not just talking about paying enough to clean up their own messes. I'm talking about enough to clean up their mess + fund the inspections + some extra punishment on top as an example to other companies.
#2. Inspectors have to be truly motivated to scrutinize every move.

I'm open to discussion on how to accomplish those things. But I will hold my ground that those 2 factors must play a serious part in any solution.
 
Well, the solution stares you in the face: you place a tax that extracts compensation for the true cost of inspections, regulating apparatus and expected harm, such as road and bridge wear and remediation of resources damaged, then you have the violation fines with incentives for both industry and the regulatory agency. I agree that both are needed. But, the industry is going to fight tooth and nail for less of a burden on them. The question is whether our government will fight equally hard to protect the interests of the Commonwealth. And, ulitimately the question we have to ask is whose side are we on in the struggle?
 
There are no sides. Both sides want the same thing.

1. Both sides want the gas companies to provide money to our citizens and ultimately, local economies, in exchange for use of land.

2. Both sides want the gas companies to employ Pennsylvanians.

3. While we'd rather they employ all Pennsylvanians, them bringing in workers to stay in our hotels, eat in our restaurants, and shop in our stores is not a bad thing for us.

4. Both sides want the gas companies to provide heat and electricity to homes from domestic resources at reasonable rates.

Here's where our goals differ:

- The gas companies, by God, would like to make a profit while doing all this. We could care less about their profits.

- We demand the gas companies do as little damage as possible to the environment, the infrastructure, and our way of life while doing this. The gas companies could care less about the environment, the future of our infrastructure, or our way of life.

But we hold the cards, we're the boss. We need to basically reach an agreement. If they meet our demands on the environment and infrastructure, we'll allow them their profit. If they fail to meet our demands, we'll see to it that they never see a profit. No sides. They are not the enemy. They're more like children. They're good and we love them, but sometimes they need to be told the rules. When they follow the rules we'll allow them an allowance. When they disregard the rules, there needs to be punishment.
 
The whole children analogy loses me altogether. There will be a struggle between justice for the common folk and profits for the wealthy few just as there is in any public policy determination. Ignoring that reality just assures the people will come out on the short end of the stick.
 
A company is not a wealthy individual, it's not an individual at all. It is a collection of people, which includes wealthy individuals in senior management, as well as many other levels of people, the vast majority which are the "working poor" that you make it your noble goal to defend.

A company's profits are not squirreled away somewhere for some rich guy to collect. When a company gets too much cash on hand, Wall Street scolds it. Thus, profits are either distributed among the lower employees, or invested into increasing capacity (i.e. hiring more people). Likewise, losses are either handled by decreasing the pay/benefits of lower employees, or laying people off.

Now, if you're arguing that the upper management gets too great a compensation when compared to the lower workers, I'm right there beside ya man, I agree. Unfortunately the rich at the top are insulated from this whole fight for profits. Their compensation is considered part of the bottom line, they get it whether the company succeeds or fails, which is ashame. The difference between profitable and not profitable is put squarely on the back of the "working poor" employees.

Further, the money for the programs you love so much comes from business taxes and personal income taxes solely from the private sector, both of which are dependent on profits of companies. When you cut into the income of companies, you take away money for government programs. Of course, this is necessary at times to protect resources and our future, it's a balance that must be achieved.

Nonetheless, attacking the company as a whole does not hurt those at the top as much as those at the bottom, the very one's you claim to try to help.

This is not a struggle between the common folk and profits for the wealthy. You are totally backwards. This is common folk's environment vs. common folk's income. The wealthy have set it up so that they are handsomly rewarded nomatter which side wins.
 
I agree with Jack. You have to take into consideration everything that needs to be done to fine these companies. You have a lot of cost incurred by the tax payer in paying the right number of inspectors, paying for everything that is entailed in the legal process, and of course, enforcing the fines should the company not pay. This is an industry that has no lack of funds available to remain viable and profitable. And as for any threats that they may make regarding pulling out of PA-does anyone really believe that? Where would they go? And if they chose to go, I think, that would be a corporate-minded decision. Let them make it and we can have our streams & woods back.
-Missy (Dave's Wife)
 
Here is a link that will take you to a University of Pittsburgh website that contains a link to a map that shows the various locations of Marcellus Shale drilling violations.

http://data.fractracker.org/cbi/snapshot/page?concept=~0152d8a286f27d11df9675c00b7e22e5d6

Here is a link, from the same site, that provides a list of Marcellus Shale drilling companies and their record of violations (so that you can get a sense of who runs the better operation).

http://www.fractracker.org/2010/11/marcellus-shale-violations-by-drilling.html

The thought did occur to me that it could have been an act of vandalism-however I believe that the article said the company had no attempt at explanation of how the valve could have been open. They didn't cite vandalism.

-Missy
 
David,

The 2nd link was very informative, thank you. Shows the wide variation between companies. What I'm saying is that the total cost to the company to stay in business should be highly dependent on these type of numbers. High violation rate should equal a loss of money, and lower violation rates should equal profit.
 
I think one needs to define responsible drilling. If injecting a cocktail of toxic chemicals into the ground at high pressure then storing the waste fluids in a reservoir to evaporate then covering it with dirt before you leave is responsible, well, by all means. Accidents need to be prevented, but I think it might be just as well to look at the total picture of what the process truly is. Why is the industry exempt from the Clean Water Act? You may already know there are some good videos on You Tube from people in PA that have wells on their land. Hickory PA seems to have quite a few. Corbett is going to side with the industry, regardless. They paid him hundreds of thousands of dollars to do just that-hence, the tax free drilling plan. (oh, and they paid Onorato much less than that).

I've attached a picture of a wild trout stream from one of our trips to Sproul State Forest.
 

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WOW!!! Missy/David those links are really good , where is Dimock in relation to Scranton , the number of infractions is disturbing to say the least. The number of companies is also to me anyhow disturbing. When looking at those links i get a feeling of being overwhelmed. I pray we are not too late already , please , anyone who has operations close enough to them that they can keep an eye on them , do so , talk to the workers if you can , remember the workers are just folks like most of us and will talk about what they do if you are willing to listen.
 
great links david, thanks! I especially like the companies that have violations and haven't even drilled a well yet!! yeah, I want those guys messing with my water supply!!LOL!
 
I understand. Off the top of my head, I believe that EOG Resources was fined between $350,000 to $400,000 for the 35,000 gallon spill in Black Moshannon this past spring. Is that an acceptable fine to hold the company responsible for the accident (considering that they had hours to call for help and no one did)? I've heard conflicting reports on whether or not the frac chemicals entered the water-most reports say that the chemicals did not, but I don't know.

It's a difficult question for me to answer. Corporations are profit driven but I think when dealing with such powerhouses as EOG (affilitated with Enron!), one cannot rely on corporate responsibility. The industry seems to believe it is "entitled" to what it takes. I don't honestly think the fine will push them towards responsible behavior, ultimately. In my experience, companies put aside "fine" money and consider it a part of doing business. If you want to make them responsible you have to hand out fines that seem absurdly large. Then, and only then, would you have a "chance" of getting their attention. And you need to tax them to protect the taxpayer for all the clean up and repair that will need to be done-in the case of wells located on state park/forest land, you need to put that revenue in a fund that will earn interest and be completely devoted to fixing Rendell's idea of prostituting our forests in the first place.

-Missy (Dave's Wife)
 
Even with the number of violations and with what seems to be a questionable outcome, I truly believe that the more we know, the better off we are in the long run. So don't get discouraged. If enough people are educated about the realities of Marcellus and as more accidents occur (awful!), the more we could move away from drilling.

And then there's the Frac Act sponsored by Casey.

I started researching all of this after learning about the Black Moshannon spill. Before that I had a vague idea that this could be a problematic situation, but had no idea of exactly the scope of it. I had no idea that our state had opened our land to permit it. Before Moshannon, I kept hearing about all the jobs coming to Pittsburgh and how much money people were going to make.

One of my friends just said the other day how much money her realtor friend who works in Washington, PA was making off the guys coming in from OK and TX to drill down there. She said that she thinks Marcellus is a great thing, that it needs to be done, and that she's actually glad they're drilling in rural areas vs the city. There was some crap too about the U.S. needing the energy, but that's a post for a different day. I said, of course, that they should drill in the city vs in our rural areas. After all, it's already polluted.

Dimock is not near Scranton. Well, it's about an hour north west of it. It's much closer to Susquehanna.

Hang in there!

- Missy
 
David/Missy.............OH NO , when was there a spill on Black Moshannon? Is that the one i was asking about my friend heard on the News about 2 weeks ago? My fishing buddy from Mineral Point took me to Black Moshannon creek starting about three years ago on the Special Regs section , we've been making that a spring trip once or twice a year for 3 years , it's nice it's fairly close and there are lots of trout. What Happened there? My buddy is going to be angry about that. He works for Gamesa in Ebensburg and is an avid fly fisher and a TU member for decades.
 
Dear Board,

I have an idea, since the great legislature of this State thinks it's unfair to expect the drilling companies to pay an extraction tax why not go after the folk's who have profited so far from the process, the lessor's?

They sold the rights to drill on their land but they did not sell the rights to access that land using public roads and bridges because it is not their's to sell. Ecrow money from them to pay for the damages and you will have an extraction tax enacted in 24 hours or less!

It's a joke that this State is only one the Nation without an extraction tax and the common citizen's will be left holding the bag without one.

Don't tell me that a tax would make it difficult for the poor gas companies to make ends meet. These drill rigs and crews cost $ 1,000,000.00's to mobilize from Texas, and Wyoming, and West Virginia and where ever else they originated and this is going on when natural gas is as cheap as it has been for years? They are collecting gas as the value of it drops and they are still making piles of money.

So let's do the right thing and tax the folks who leased their land and everything will be corrected quickly, and in such as manner that everyone benefits.

Regards,

Tim Murphy :)
 
Dear Tim,(couldn't resist!) I have given thought to something along those lines, I think if someone leases thier land for drilling, they should be held partly responible for their neighbors water supply and such. might make some people think before signing on the dotted line. how fair is it if someone leases their farm to drilling, then a dozen of their neighbors get contaminated wells from it, they lose their drinking water while the land owner gets rich. there should be some accountability there. I'm not one for the government telling us what we can do with our land, but when it comes to doing something that could harm our neighbors, that's a different story. I'm not saying every well drilled would result in problems, but accidents have been happening. maybe there are already rules in place regarding this, but I haven't heard of any.
the same rules would apply to the state for leasing state lands. they should be held responsible for any neighboring lands that could get contaminate.
best wishes,
Alan
 
Dear Alan,

We seem to be viewing this similarly.

I'm not telling anyone they can't lease their land and mineral rights but if the lessors and the drilling companies make their money utilizing infrastructure which everyone has paid for why should the damages be paid for by everyone collectively?

If your use and benefit from something which is paid for collectively by the general public is disproportiate to the money you expended in payment initially you should have to pay more to equalize things.

If a dairy farmer hasa manure pit that leaks and damages the property of other neighbors either that farmer or his insurance company ultimately compensates those who suffered damages.

The way things are at this point with drilling unless more money is expended by the government and individuals who have been wronged in the form of court actions only the general public is paying for damages, and that is simply and utterly wrong.

If you use it you pay for it, it really is that simple. That concept works for everything else, why not here in this case?

Regards,

Tim Murphy :)
 
Off the top of my head, I believe that EOG Resources was fined between $350,000 to $400,000 for the 35,000 gallon spill in Black Moshannon this past spring. Is that an acceptable fine to hold the company responsible for the accident (considering that they had hours to call for help and no one did)?

That is less than one months production for a single well, so no I don't think it is overly stressing to the companies.

If a dairy farmer hasa manure pit that leaks and damages the property of other neighbors either that farmer or his insurance company ultimately compensates those who suffered damages.

Only if a duty to protect is breached. Environmental damages as a result of pollution are specifically excluded from the Homeowners and Farmowners policy forms. Most commercial package policies exclude it as well. If a property owner was found liable for damages they could pay the damages or they could simply dismiss the judgment in bankruptcy. Besides, the oil companies have much deeper pockets than the land owners and are more easily villified (rightly or wrongly) in courts.

There WILL be a severance tax placed on the drilling companies but not for the right reasons. The major beneficiary of this tax will the the states general fund. That is the only reason a severance tax will be put in place. I do for some dumb reason believe there will be decent amount of allocation to pro environmental concerns.
 
Dear jdaddy,

I will take you at your word that what you said is true which begs the question, what is insurance other than a giant scam?

I'm not questioning what you said, I'm just wondering how that all came to be? People are required to have insurance and it appears based on what you say that the insurance companies are only required to collect premiums and everything else ultimately comes about primarily because of court actions? Even when that happens the offenders are allowed to walk away under the veil of bankruptcy.

Is the deck really that poorly shuffled? I'd like to hope that isn't the case but you seem to know what you are talking about so I suspect it actually is that way.

Regards,

Tim Murphy :)
 
I think it would be a good idea to get ahead of the curve with these fracking projects. Some of them are going to be done. Probably many of them.

Things that conservation-minded individuals and groups can do of their own accord, without a great deal of expense (although it will take some time and effort):

1) Do a 'triage' assessment- prioritize which watersheds [including streams, springs, wells, and aquifer basins] are the most highly valued, healthy, ecologically diverse, unique, extensive, and vulnerable. That's always going to be something of a judgment call- but some cases are bound to be more obvious than others.

You guys are the Pa. native trout fishers- and that makes you expert informants on the ground on that subject. There's no need to commission some research project that delivers it's findings after what's done is done.

First you map it out. Then you rank the watersheds, in order of the ones that most require protection. Not easy, but this is triage.

2) Obtain a map of all of the planned/possible drilling sites.

3) Then you overlay those maps, and figure out which locations need the most protection.

Then you have a clear idea of what most needs to be defended.

4) Learn the important basic facts about fracking chemicals and procedures- in order to figure out what constitutes a minor spill, and what constitutes a major spill. You want some sound science-based perspective, so you don't fly off the handle over every last thing.

An example: this spill being discussed is 13,000 gallons- equivalent to the size of a 24 ft. round pool with a depth of 52 inches.

http://www.backyardcitypools.com/swimming-pools/Pool-Volume-Calculate.htm

Big question: how bad is a 13,000 gallon spill, really?

Speaking for myself- I don't know.

I'm still in the very beginning stages of learning about all of this, so I don't have the answers to most of my questions- but this is the next thing I want to ask:

How much of that 13,000 gallons is water, and how much is other stuff- salt, petroleum distillates, detergents, etc.?

Then you want to run a rough comparison of the effects of that spill, versus the amounts contributed to the well/aquifer/watershed by the sort of non-point source runoff that we've come to accept as part of the modern world. Things like the grease and oil of vehicles washing off of pavement into streams, or road salt. It's important to figure out how much of an added burden is being imposed on the watershed.

5) Then you want to figure out the array of possible consequences from a "no-problem" spill; a minor spill, that would cause negative cumulative effects if repeated in the same place; the levels of major spill that could lead to ever more serious consequences like aquatic insect dieoffs or fishkills; and finally, what a catastrophe would look like. Including one from cumulative insults and traumas.

In order to do that, you need to involve environmental scientists. It might even be possible to get some of those people to do studies and risk assessments pro bono (i.e., without getting paid.) Documented findings and estimates are important.

6) Then you need to get the local environmental scientists/watershed keepers (and that's you, some of you) and petro geologists, hydrologists, and engineers to talk to each other. How well this dialogue would go, I can't say. But I think it's important to try. I don't think it should be necessary to make it about government hearings- at least at first. More like a meeting of the minds (with minutes taken), and informal community Q&A sessions. Try for reasonable cooperation, first. If you don't get it, document that.

7) I think one goal should be to allow monitoring of the drilling operations by trained local volunteer teams. If the gas companies are above-board and honest, I think they ought to find a way to permit that sort of oversight. But the volunteers need to be trained so that they know what they're looking at. (And, sad to say, it's probably important to have a check on them by rotating the teams, to prevent the possibility of bribery.)
 
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