Steelhead in the Delaware River?

[SBecker]

Can someone explain to me why TU was up in arms about steelhead being stocked in the Delaware? It was brought to my attention tonight by a board member and large advocate on the Shad committee the TU basically flipped out because there was talk of starting to stock steelies there? I guess after the Delaware became free flowing there was some talking done. TU complained that it would ruin the population of trout in the Upper Delaware and they were not a native species. I just feel that is a dumb argument because they are a native of PA waters or at least were back before industry took over the water ways. Kind of pissed me off when I heard it. Why do i have to go 6 hours away when they could be 40 minutes away?

 

[PennKev]

TU complained that it would ruin the population of trout in the Upper Delaware and they were not a native species. I just feel that is a dumb argument because they are a native of PA waters or at least were back before industry took over the water ways. Kind of pissed me off when I heard it.

Steelhead are not native to PA at all. Only brook trout and lake trout (Lake Erie) are native to PA.

Kev

 

[Slate_Drake_9]

The Delaware River is famous for it's Oncorhynchus Mykiss, aka, rainbows, aka, steelhead. Been in there for years.

Who knows, maybe PA will actually have real steelhead (not just lake run rainbows) if the rainbows start to migrate into the ocean and return to spawn in fresh water.

Could be interesting.

I'd rather see them try to get an atlantic salmon program going though.

 

[redrockgrizzly]

honestly, i dont think steelhead would work in the delaware. water in the river and ocean would be too warm.
if you stock steelhead fingerlings in the delaware, they would have to get by the smallmouth, muskie and walleye in the lower river, the large stripers in the bay, the blues and other predator fish in the ocean,
once they hit the ocean, the water would be too warm so they would migrate to the upper atlantic. on the way back, they would be free meals to all the sharks. once they get back to the bay, they would have to wait till the water hits the 60's. not sure when that happens but im sure it isnt until late fall. then they would have atleast a 200+ mile trek up the delaware.
so maybe, just maybe mid december, you might get a small run.
not going to work.

 

[pcray1231]

Interesting. I'd like to see what happens, honestly. Steelies on the east coast could be awesome.

Yes, steelhead and rainbows are technically the same species. No, neither is native to PA. But steelhead are a strain with a much greater biological "drive" to migrate to the sea. You can't expect the resident rainbows to ever pick that up, just not in the DNA. It could fail altogether. They may succeed, but not reproduce, and thus require continued stocking like most of the steelhead fisheries in the great lakes. Or they could reproduce, perhaps even intermingle with the resident rainbows, so that you'll have some ocean run and some residents, which would be pretty cool.

 

[SBecker]

Did anybody else know the the Little Lehigh was stocked with steel in the 60's for 5 years but they never worked out because of the pollution at that time. Another interesting tidbit.

 

[MattBoyer]

LRSABecker wrote:
Did anybody else know the the Little Lehigh was stocked with steel in the 60's for 5 years but they never worked out because of the pollution at that time. Another interesting tidbit.

Aren't there dams between the Little Lehigh and the ocean? That'd up the fail factor by a bit more than pollution. There are so many reasons that it wouldn't work I'm not sure where to start. The only valid justification I can come up with is "because it would be cool" and that to me doesn't justify screwing with an existing ecosystem, although once again, it would be cool.

Boyer

 

[SBecker]

in the 60's there were no damns

 

[FarmerDave]

pcray1231 wrote:
Interesting. I'd like to see what happens, honestly. Steelies on the east coast could be awesome.

Yes, steelhead and rainbows are technically the same species. No, neither is native to PA. But steelhead are a strain with a much greater biological "drive" to migrate to the sea. You can't expect the resident rainbows to ever pick that up, just not in the DNA. It could fail altogether. They may succeed, but not reproduce, and thus require continued stocking like most of the steelhead fisheries in the great lakes. Or they could reproduce, perhaps even intermingle with the resident rainbows, so that you'll have some ocean run and some residents, which would be pretty cool.

I think the genes are still there, just not as prevalent. In fact (I think) that is how they discovered that steelhead would work in lake erie. They stocked regular old rainbows and some migrated into the lake and came back as monsters.

so, if you are not seeing any sea run rainbows right now at least in small numbers in the Del, it aint gonna happen and would be a waste of time and money to try (IMHO).

It would be interesting to know the history of Atlantic Salmon in the Del, if there ever was a history. If there wasn't, then steelhead wouldn't work, either. Same with sea run browns (another non-native) which we did have in Connecticut in small numbers.

 

[bam]

Not sure where I heard this, but I recall New Jersey is... or maybe was trying to get a population of sea run browns going. Any truth to this?

 

[gulfgreyhound]

There are supposed to be some Atlantic's in Connecticut.Massachusetts has ,had a salmon hatchery in Belchertown to stock the Connecticut River.Mass has quite a few sea run brown streams out on the Cape and west of there.Atlantic's ran the Delaware and the Hudson in Colonial times.
obviously the problem is pollution and dams.Better idea might be a trial of Atlantic's in the Erie Feeders. imo

 

[Fishidiot]

bam wrote:
Not sure where I heard this, but I recall New Jersey is... or maybe was trying to get a population of sea run browns going. Any truth to this?

Yes. This was started in the Manasquan River in the mid 1990s. This is a small, tidal river that dumps directly into the Atlantic. The results have been mixed and I'm not sure if the state is still stocking the fingerlings. Some fish did return to the river and fish of several pounds have been caught and continue to be. Local folks are very tight lipped about the fishery. I was pleased that funding from my artwork helped get this program off to a start back then but I doubt the state considers it a big success.

 

[sight_nymph_17109]

Why pick the D? If there's anything going to be done on or to that river, it should be work on a water release program. I really don't think anything should be stocked or introduced into that river system. It's fine as it is. Why do we (humans) always need to screw around and ruin a good thing? Keep your stockies on the Lehigh.

 

[MattBoyer]

bam wrote:
Not sure where I heard this, but I recall New Jersey is... or maybe was trying to get a population of sea run browns going. Any truth to this?

///

Raritan river and from what I understand there are a few but access is tough.

Boyer


Edit: I forgot about the Manasquan. My bad.

 

[midnightangler]

Can someone explain to me why TU was up in arms about steelhead being stocked in the Delaware?

I'd be unhappy about it as well. If you're going to stock anadromous fish on the east coast, it should be atlantic salmon. It would be irresponsible to consider introducing a potentially competing species to the Atlantic coast when Atlantic Salmon are really struggling in many of their native waterways. Its likely that steelhead would have a deleterious effect on the spawning of the resident trout in the upper Delaware as well. Its unbelievably stupid to experiment on healthy fisheries.

The Upper Delaware is one of the best coldwater fisheries in the east. If its not broke, don't fix it.

 

[FarmerDave]

gulfgreyhound wrote:
There are supposed to be some Atlantic's in Connecticut.Massachusetts has ,had a salmon hatchery in Belchertown to stock the Connecticut River.Mass has quite a few sea run brown streams out on the Cape and west of there.Atlantic's ran the Delaware and the Hudson in Colonial times.
obviously the problem is pollution and dams.Better idea might be a trial of Atlantic's in the Erie Feeders. imo

I did a little research, and apparently the historical southern most range of Atlantic salmon in the US was Long Island sound and as far as rivers go, the Hudson.

The Deleware river apparently never had them.

 

[MattBoyer]

gulfgreyhound wrote:
.Better idea might be a trial of Atlantic's in the Erie Feeders. imo

The whole reason Pacific salmonids were introduced into the great lakes is because alewife are toxic to Atlantics, or at least block their ability to process thiamin during reproduction. Until alewife are eradicated from the GL system, Atlantics can not be self sustaining.

Boyer

 

[jayL]

There is a perfectly healthy population of wild trout in that system. The idea of stocking steelhead, to me, is absurd. I really hope this doesn't happen. Save the steelhead for the rivers that don't have anything else going for them.

 

[JeffK]

The Delaware has been subject to all sorts of experiments for 140 years. Atlantic salmon were tried starting in the 1870's for a few decades - mostly stocked in the Musconetcong and at the springs off Hummer's Beach north of Easton. One appeared in the Bushkill in Easton. Nobody could hook it, so someone just shot it. Shad netters got a few each year, but they never returned in a big way. Chinook were tried at the same time and never got any return. The mouth of the Delaware is a tad south of the native range of Atlantic salmon on either side of the Atlantic which is somewhere around the 40 to 41 parallel.

Steelhead have been tried a number of times going back to the 19th century. Back in the 60's I remember they were stocked in Van Campen's Brook. Nothing really returned.

NJ has been trying to start a sea-run brown run in the Manasquan. Only a few are caught each year, 90% by a single person. Some think the Tom's R would be a better choice and some suggested trying the sea run brookie stock from the Connetquot on Long Island, but the IPN outbreak there stopped any discussions.

The non-native fish introduced to the Delaware drainage is a long list:
Smallmouth bass
Largemouth Bass
Rock Bass
Walleye
Northern Pike
Muskie
Rainbow trout
Brown Trout
Bluegill
Carp
Flathead catfish
channel catfish

Many more fish were tried. The TU position is typically to quit playing around with introducing non-native species and focus on protecting what we have left.

 

[JeffK]

re: great lakes atlantics

Atlantics are showing some signs of a fragile recovery. Atlantics have started successfully spawning at Sault St Marie and they have been showing up in greater numbers in the Ontario tribs. A couple of interesting theories are that EMS resistant strains are developing (Sault Ste marie) and that the Atlantics (and the browns) have been switching to a goby diet. Gobies are another introduced pest and people are watching how the predator prey balance between gobies and salmonids turns out. Some questions about EMS in the Fingers too. One peak alewife year on Seneca appeared to be a low EMS year. One theory is the another factor may be that the thiaminase level in alewives might be due to stress levels on the alewife population.

Introduction of lampreys (native to Fingers and Lake O) caused laker populations to crash and the introduced alewife population to explode (who remembers the foot deep scum of dead alewives on the GL beaches in the 1960's?) and then Pacific salmon were the cure, then the zebra and quagga mussels were introduced, then the water cleared and the bait populations shifted, then kings got thinner and steelies scarcer, then gobies were introduced and went wild, then introduced shrimp displaced the native mysis shrimp possibly affecting juvenile fish growth, then questions about other causes of laker decline cropped up, then browns started to fatten up on gobies and get huge, and then atlantics may have gotten into the act, and steelhead runs have come back (or exceded) 1980's levels. Kokanees/pinks were the rage for a while - not many left today.

It has been a wild ride with introduced species in the Great Lakes.