SIMMS....in case u were wondering....

I want to point something out to you guys, and these are things I learned from my years of being an avid backpacker, not a fly fisherman, but the idea applies to a lot of stuff across life.

Gore-Tex waders mean nothing. Gore-Tex is a brand name of material technology, and it used to mean something, but that patent expired in 1997, and when it expired, many companies began their own versions or ripoffs of "Gore-Tex." Now, in my opinion, the words "Gore-Tex" are used to charge more for something because the name carries weight with consumers, just like the brand names Simms and Orvis carry weight and can almost automatically get people to pay more for it.

This same concept happens all of the time in the outdoor world. We are spoon-fed some nonsense about "new and superior fabrics," but in reality, everything is still just polyester, nylon, rayon, wool, or a blend of those. Stika and other companies have capitalized on this, but most of their stuff is just polyester. Sure, maybe that polyester is weaved in a way or pattern that didn't exist before that, but it is still just polyester. There have been very few new materials actually designed and brought to market.

Now, I am not saying that there is no difference between brands and quality; there is. In fact, trusted brands can and will produce high quality garments that will last longer, but there is nothing special about "Gore-Tex" anymore. There is nothing that overly separates it and makes it far superior than other membrane-style water-resistant nylons and polyesters.

This is just my 0.2, but when I began backpacking in earnest, it really helped me see through all the commercial advertising BS in the world, and I would say I had an eye-opening revelation of what is worth the money and what's not. This is all only for us to figure out for ourselves, however, but the words "Gore-Tex" written on something do not make me any more likely to buy it. For me, this is true of almost all fancy marketing buzzwords and fabric technologies.
 
Yeah, I've heard about the Gruden waders
But took your post as indicating that The Gore Tex brand itself will actually start making waders.
Or is Grudens off shoot of Gore Tex?
I think they are two separate companies. Gore-tex licenses their material to be used from my understanding.

I haven't heard anything about gore-tex brand waders on the market yet, but I am far from being an insider who would know.
 
I want to point something out to you guys, and these are things I learned from my years of being an avid backpacker, not a fly fisherman, but the idea applies to a lot of stuff across life.

Gore-Tex waders mean nothing. Gore-Tex is a brand name of material technology, and it used to mean something, but that patent expired in 1997, and when it expired, many companies began their own versions or ripoffs of "Gore-Tex." Now, in my opinion, the words "Gore-Tex" are used to charge more for something because the name carries weight with consumers, just like the brand names Simms and Orvis carry weight and can almost automatically get people to pay more for it.

This same concept happens all of the time in the outdoor world. We are spoon-fed some nonsense about "new and superior fabrics," but in reality, everything is still just polyester, nylon, rayon, wool, or a blend of those. Stika and other companies have capitalized on this, but most of their stuff is just polyester. Sure, maybe that polyester is weaved in a way or pattern that didn't exist before that, but it is still just polyester. There have been very few new materials actually designed and brought to market.

Now, I am not saying that there is no difference between brands and quality; there is. In fact, trusted brands can and will produce high quality garments that will last longer, but there is nothing special about "Gore-Tex" anymore. There is nothing that overly separates it and makes it far superior than other membrane-style water-resistant nylons and polyesters.

This is just my 0.2, but when I began backpacking in earnest, it really helped me see through all the commercial advertising BS in the world, and I would say I had an eye-opening revelation of what is worth the money and what's not. This is all only for us to figure out for ourselves, however, but the words "Gore-Tex" written on something do not make me any more likely to buy it. For me, this is true of almost all fancy marketing buzzwords and fabric technologies.
Thanks for the clarification on the Gore-tex material and the patent.

Just thinking off the top of my head regarding materials - dyneema for camping, hypalon for rafting. I am sure there are many more regarding the "favored" material in our equipment.
 
I want to point something out to you guys, and these are things I learned from my years of being an avid backpacker, not a fly fisherman, but the idea applies to a lot of stuff across life.

Gore-Tex waders mean nothing. Gore-Tex is a brand name of material technology, and it used to mean something, but that patent expired in 1997, and when it expired, many companies began their own versions or ripoffs of "Gore-Tex." Now, in my opinion, the words "Gore-Tex" are used to charge more for something because the name carries weight with consumers, just like the brand names Simms and Orvis carry weight and can almost automatically get people to pay more for it.

This same concept happens all of the time in the outdoor world. We are spoon-fed some nonsense about "new and superior fabrics," but in reality, everything is still just polyester, nylon, rayon, wool, or a blend of those. Stika and other companies have capitalized on this, but most of their stuff is just polyester. Sure, maybe that polyester is weaved in a way or pattern that didn't exist before that, but it is still just polyester. There have been very few new materials actually designed and brought to market.

Now, I am not saying that there is no difference between brands and quality; there is. In fact, trusted brands can and will produce high quality garments that will last longer, but there is nothing special about "Gore-Tex" anymore. There is nothing that overly separates it and makes it far superior than other membrane-style water-resistant nylons and polyesters.

This is just my 0.2, but when I began backpacking in earnest, it really helped me see through all the commercial advertising BS in the world, and I would say I had an eye-opening revelation of what is worth the money and what's not. This is all only for us to figure out for ourselves, however, but the words "Gore-Tex" written on something do not make me any more likely to buy it. For me, this is true of almost all fancy marketing buzzwords and fabric technologies.
I get your drift
However, Simms sells waders that are made with gore tex brand of fabric.
And then sells waders made with other - non gore tex fabric.
So, I'm thinking they are different, no?
 
Thanks for the clarification on the Gore-tex material and the patent.

Just thinking off the top of my head regarding materials - dyneema for camping, hypalon for rafting. I am sure there are many more regarding the "favored" material in our equipment.
Been lots of confusion over what is "gore tex" fabric, and what is simply called "breathable" fabric
 
I get your drift
However, Simms sells waders that are made with gore tex brand of fabric.
And then sells waders made with other - non gore tex fabric.
So, I'm thinking they are different, no?
Are there slight differences in how they are constructed? Maybe. Are both of them still just going to basically be polyester or nylon? Yes, they will be. There is ZERO doubt in my mind that they are both polyester or nylon. I just went to the Simms website, and all waders sporting Gore-Tex are more expensive.

I am not saying that the Gore-Tex may not function slightly higher, but I am saying that it is going to be about the same exact technology. Whether the cost difference is worth it is up to you, the consumer.
 
Cant speak for the newest waders, but historically simms goretex waders have been on a completely different level than their cheaper, non goretex waders. The face fabric was always different as well, so its not an apple to apples comparison. With that said, I have had decent luck with simms toray fabric "freestone"? Model waders. The tributaries are junk in my opjnion.

It seems QC and customer service have been all over the board since the latest sale.
 
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Are there slight differences in how they are constructed? Maybe. Are both of them still just going to basically be polyester or nylon? Yes, they will be. There is ZERO doubt in my mind that they are both polyester or nylon. I just went to the Simms website, and all waders sporting Gore-Tex are more expensive.

I am not saying that the Gore-Tex may not function slightly higher, but I am saying that it is going to be about the same exact technology. Whether the cost difference is worth it is up to you, the consumer.
I've always had fewer issue with things made out of real gore - tex brand fabric, including rain coats and boots.
Whether it's a construction issue - that's possible I guess.

But I do know that there is a method of finding wader leaks that involves spraying them with alcohol to find the pinhole leaks.
It works for me on real gore- tex waders.
And not on everything else

I mentioned earlier in this post about the freestone waders I purchased, that leaked after 3 months
They're made of what Simms call "Toray" fabric
That alcohol method did not work on them
I ended up filling them with water to find it
Something seems to be different there
 
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What waders are the best to buy?

What's the best value? Which waders have the best utility/cost ratio?
Depends on how you look at things I guess.

One camp on here thinks that they're all gonna leak anyway.
So just buy cheap ones, and replace them every year or so.

The other side - I'm included - thinks it worth it to spend more money, and (hopefully) get something that will last 3-5 years.
For me, that's only happened with real gore tex fabric.
For whatever reason
 
Upon further investigation, Gore-Tex is actually PTFE and not nylon or polyester. It is different. I still stand by the fact that 99.9% of everything is marketed brand names of polyester and nylon. I have had Gore-Tex garments (shoes, jackets) and have not been overly impressed. It doesn't mean I will rule Gore-Tex out for the rest of my life, though, but it does mean I am not instantly swooned by its use or by stuff flashing the Gore-Tex brand name around.
 
What waders are the best to buy?

What's the best value? Which waders have the best utility/cost ratio?
I have gotten my best dollar for use ratio out of Frogg Toggs, actually. About 4 years ago, though, I stopped being able to find Frogg Toggs with good booties. They are always too small for my feet now, and that hurts.
 
Depends on how you look at things I guess.

One camp on here thinks that they're all gonna leak anyway.
So just buy cheap ones, and replace them every year or so.

The other side - I'm included - thinks it worth it to spend more money, and (hopefully) get something that will last 3-5 years.
For me, that's only happened with real gore tex fabric.
For whatever reason
I'm in your camp, spend more and hopefully get more useful life. That said waders are "wear parts" they have a finite limited life and will eventually leak even with max prevention.
 
I am the poster that mentioned Gore Tex and the fly shop owner.

What was said to me is that Sitka, which is highly respected in the hunting community, is owned by WL Gore. It was not clear to me if Sitka would be entering the fishing market, or a new brand under Gore will be set up for fishing. But it was clear to me, Gore was entering the market.

Grundens is not owned by Gore as AFAIK, it is a separate company that licenses the gore Tex tech.
 
I am the poster that mentioned Gore Tex and the fly shop owner.

What was said to me is that Sitka, which is highly respected in the hunting community, is owned by WL Gore. It was not clear to me if Sitka would be entering the fishing market, or a new brand under Gore will be set up for fishing. But it was clear to me, Gore was entering the market.

Grundens is not owned by Gore as AFAIK, it is a separate company that licenses the gore Tex tech.
Sitka has waders but there marketed towards water fowl guys, the guy who started Sitka sold to gore tex and then started a brand called kuiu which i have bought alot of and can't rave about enough, pricey though
 
Hey Bill, Toray is a textile company that makes woven and fiber products. They make Carbon Fiber and I have used that material in other work. Toray has a great reputation.

I have said this before and stand by it. I am not a brand loyalist, I am a product loyalist. Some companies make better products than others, but not across the board. I love the simms wader taco, but not their waders. I love Dr. Slick scissors but their bobbin holders are just okay but their whip finish tools are amazing. C&F makes great fly boxes. Orvis has great rods, and an even better warranty. I like the Orvis backpack better than any of the Patagonia backpacks - for fishing. But for an even better backpack? Mindshift or Osprey. Reels - Galvan for Euro/mono, and Ross for fly lines.

In terms of waders, I have had Cabelas, FT, and last few pairs are Patagonia. The waders are great, but the warranty and repair is why I come back. They stand behind their products and are willing to fix them when I break them - for free, and quickly.

Bottom Line - Warranty Details:
I love Scott rods, and I fish them a lot. Break a tip or mid section? Send the whole rod back, wait about 10-12 weeks and pay $125 bucks PLUS $65 return shipping. Is it worth that? Not sure. Orvis repair is 5 days and only $60 handling for a rod. The difference in rod action is not enough to justify that. Ross has a great warranty and turn around time for reels. They also have all the parts for old and discontinued models. I already mentioned the warranty experience from Patagonia, and that is largely why when I need a new pair I will go right back and buy them.
 
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