Selective trout?

[mikesl]

Excellent book out there by Bob Wyatt that also argues against the "myth" of the educated / selective trout, or at least, for fly design that is based on general impression, shape , and size, and he too puts much more emphasis on how the fly sits, how easy it is for a fish to see, and just general "bugginess"

It seems fairly convincing

Add to that trout slamming a strike indicator now and then and it is attractive to me as a novice fly tyer.... That I can get away with simpler stuff 🙂


Also, have heard it proposed on this board that trout respond to the presence of certain triggers, and aren't wired to see a hook and count that as something that should not be there....

 

[mikesl]

On the topic of selectivity... I do believe there can be such a thing and yet trout still be relatively dumb and not have a log term memory to speak of...

Something to do with trout having "food recognition" triggers that are there in general, but are influenced more strongly by things that have been eaten recently.... So if something is momentarily abundant, it can temporarily dominate the food recognition trigger and "score higher" on the "is this food" score....

No scientific evidence, but this is how I think about it....

To me that explains that matching a hatch is good, but you can match it with generally impressionistic things, or make a really good looking other offer that still registers as food so irresistible it overrides the temporary fixation...

 

[krayfish]

There's a legit argument for fly size, an argument for fly color and one for matching fly shape / silhouette. Others will argue that it's all about presentation. I personally feel it's a combination of all the above. Take a poorly tied catskill pattern (bad proportions & wrong size) and an ultra realistic pattern.....cut the hook off at the bend. If you found a heavily pressured fish rising and lobbed one of each into the feeding lane, both will get eaten sometimes. I'd bet money the realistic pattern was eaten more consistently and with less hesitation.

I've fish flies that don't match the hatch and it's been met with good results. I've also matched the hatch very closely and was nearly skunked. I think it depends on the amount of insects on the water, how many species and how heavy the fishing pressure. Mutant pelletheads vs wild would also come into play. I've seen a stocker taken in the run at boiling springs and within 60 seconds of release, he was rising again. I'll guess that doesn't happen on the Letort or Delaware......ever.

Compare a brookie stream where food is hard to come by to a HEAVY sulphur hatch on Spring. Since there's more meals to choose from on Spring, I'd expect those fish to be more selective.

Are trout born selective or do they become that way courtesy of angling pressure and predation? Again, I'd believe it's a combination of genetic background and the fishes learned behavior. Were the original browns put in the Letort as spooky as the current generations? Or was it years and years of the most wary / selective fish being the most successful to reach spawning age thus passing on those traits? There's something to chew on.

To sum it up, subscribe to importance in this order...presentation, size, shape and color. With that said, I wouldn't mind having a few ultra realistic models in the fly box. If it helps tilt things in my favor by an additional 10%, I'll take it (not for every fish but those couple you bump into every year that give you nightmares).

 

[troutbert]

Sure, trout are often selective. The example of the sulphur hatch, as rrt mentioned, is the perfect place to see this.

But other hatches too. BWOs, tan caddis, Tricos, whatever.

For those saying that trout are not selective, have you fished these hatches? And have you done just as well with flies that look nothing at all like what is hatching as with patterns tied to match the hatch?

 

[Chaz]

Well I'm going to take a shot at this one. If the fly is tied correctly the hook will erst on the top of the water, making it less dicernible to the trou as a shiny metal thing and more like a leg or tail.

 

[Maurice]

I too believe that the selectivity of trout feeding behavior is largley learned behavior based on cause and effect combined with trained instincts.

For instance it is the instinct of a trout to eat when it needs nourishment. It is also instinctual for trout to be wary of predators. Because of their exposure to humans stocked trout become less wary of human behavior nearby. This combined with their need to eat and likelyhood of being caught numerous times causes them to be extra careful what they eat.

Food abundance during a heavy hatch can reduce the trouts inhabitions toward being caught. Likely because the reward is so great. Like playing a daily double.

Conversely, Wild trout in unpressured situation show no tolerance for human activity and spook easily. Putting these fish down can kill the fishing for pool on small wild trout streams.]

Obviously the larger the trout the older it is and with that comes experience with success in the survival game. The instincts over nutrition game becomes more acute.

Fish a pool of pressured stocked trout with midges and you can drift the wrong midge over their heads fifty times and never put them down.

Try that on a wild trout and you'll likely spook them.

So I think degree of selectivity is driven primarily by the trouts ability to commune with fisherman.

 

[Chaz]

One time several years ago on Cedar Run, arguably one of the most heavily pressuredfreestone streams in PA, fishing once of the most fished sections, I was assailed by the guy I was fishing with to come to this pool he'd been fishing. A trout was rising and he couldn't catch it, so I took a couple of shots with my Royal Wulff and the selective brown that was taking Quill Gordons, ignored a natural next to my fly and took my fly. We actually saw him come up and look at the natural and then go for my fly.

 

[dryflyguy]

Tomitrout -

Was that guest speaker Matt Supinski?

 

[tomitrout]

Tomitrout -

Was that guest speaker Matt Supinski?

Yeah, and like I said, he gave a great presentation.

I didn't challenge him at the meeting, though he seemed to be looking for someone to pipe up, because it took a day or two for me to digest it all.

One thing in particular that really got the wheels spinning was him talking about tying a caddis pattern on a size smaller hook, say an 18 for a 16 natural, because the body of that particular caddis is smaller in porportion to the wings. So he ties a 16sized wing onto an 18 hook so the body of the fly matches the natural, we're talking the difference of less than 1mm in body length here....I was driving home from work thinking about this and wondered, what about the hook!?!? I mean, you're telling me a trout is going to discern

 

[dryflyguy]

I saw Matt Supinski give the same talk at our TU chapter meeting a few weeks ago, and really enjoyed it.
He made a lot of points that I agree with.
He thinks that selectivity is bred into the fish that we catch now. He talked about fishing back in the day with Vince Marinaro, and how those fish were't as picky as they are now.
He also told a story about catching a large trout at Big Spring, that had refused his offerings until he went down to 7X tippet. I know many fishermen who think that there is absolutely no need to use anything smaller than 4x and 5x tippet. But I have found that there are some situations where it does make a difference.

As for why the hook doesn't seem to bother trout, that is a good question. My guess is that because it's built into the fly, the fish just don't seem to notice it. Or care much that something else is attached to the fly.
I've watched fish in low, gin clear water come up and hit a floating piece of stick, leaf, or other debris, and then spit it out.
So, they're not completely fool hardy.
Thank goodness for that!

 

[shortrod2]

Chaz wrote:
One time several years ago on Cedar Run, arguably one of the most heavily pressuredfreestone streams in PA, fishing once of the most fished sections, I was assailed by the guy I was fishing with to come to this pool he'd been fishing. A trout was rising and he couldn't catch it, so I took a couple of shots with my Royal Wulff and the selective brown that was taking Quill Gordons, ignored a natural next to my fly and took my fly. We actually saw him come up and look at the natural and then go for my fly.

Yep, and that is an example of the fact that there are very few absolute rules in the game of fly fishing for trout.

 

[troutbert]

tomitrout wrote:

One thing in particular that really got the wheels spinning was him talking about tying a caddis pattern on a size smaller hook, say an 18 for a 16 natural, because the body of that particular caddis is smaller in porportion to the wings. So he ties a 16sized wing onto an 18 hook so the body of the fly matches the natural, we're talking the difference of less than 1mm in body length here....I was driving home from work thinking about this and wondered, what about the hook!?!? I mean, you're telling me a trout is going to discern

 

[afishinado]

shortrod2 wrote:

Chaz wrote:
One time several years ago on Cedar Run, arguably one of the most heavily pressuredfreestone streams in PA, fishing once of the most fished sections, I was assailed by the guy I was fishing with to come to this pool he'd been fishing. A trout was rising and he couldn't catch it, so I took a couple of shots with my Royal Wulff and the selective brown that was taking Quill Gordons, ignored a natural next to my fly and took my fly. We actually saw him come up and look at the natural and then go for my fly.

Yep, and that is an example of the fact that there are very few absolute rules in the game of fly fishing for trout.

Ture. Anyone that feels they have it figured out is crazy.

Start with stealth and a good presentation. Try what makes the most sense first, and keep changing things up (not just the pattern, your presentation, technique, etc.). The more techniques and presentations and patterns you have to throw at them, the better chance you have of fooling some fish.

In order of importance:

stealth
good presentation
varied techniques
fly pattern

 

[shortrod2]

geebee wrote:
Not to rain on anyone's parade, but a trouts brain is not capable of memory, it's not complex enough or wired that way.

Wrong. Trout in pressured areas do often act differently than trout in non-pressured areas. This is learned behavior. In order to have learned behavior they must have memory.

geebee wrote:
Trout make two choices only - food or not food.

Sure, the same can be said for any animal, even humans get it wrong sometimes.

geebee wrote:
Otherwise, why do swung wets work and streamers during a hatch ?

I don't understand the inclusion of swung wets here. A wet fly can "match the hatch" just as well and in some cases much better than any other fly. As for the streamers, it is entirely possible for trout to have an instinct for large food items that overrides the selectivity instinct.

geebee wrote:
Selective trout, is another way of saying wary trout...

My personal definition of Selective trout is a reference to the well documented instinct trout have where they will feed on a single insect or even stage of insect (example: emerging Sulphur) excluding all others, even other insects that would seem to provide a better calorie intake to calorie expended ratio (example: Green Drake).

 

[Stenonema]

Afishinado I agree. The importance of stealth is learned out of necessity on less pressured wild trout. With most agreeing to some degree on the importance of presentation, I find it curious why more fly fisherman don't practice casting in the yard. The importance of good casting and the ability to make that cast accurately is immeasurable. A common thing I see is fisherman wasting too much time either fishing where there isn't trout or over spooked trout. I'm getting off track, however with the importance of presentation, imagine if people spent as much time learning and practicing to cast more efficient. Is it possible that we try to overcompensate for poor approach, cast i.e. presentation with a more advanced fly design. Can the more effective fly fisherman narrow his fly selection for this reason? I think so. With that said I also think that you can only identify certain criteria for selectivity if you can definitively eliminate other criteria.
If the fishing is not visual, such as streamer or nymph fishing. The more efficient and accurate caster can confidently cover more water more quickly making it easier to identify fly pattern as an issue.

 

[pete41]

if you are gonna practice casting in the yard-cut off the bend of the hook-untold gad zillions of rookies have broken rods by not doing so,or so I consoled myself when I learned the expensive way.lol

 

[Stenonema]

I tie a brightly colored dry fly using cerise or chartreuse hackle. I then snip the hook off at the bend. The hackle I use is not of the expensive variety.

 

[krayfish]

So you're saying that spending $80 on a top grade neck to tie practice flies for casting in the yard is the wrong way to do it? No wonder I don't have gas mony to go fishing. LMAO. Do people really practice? I did my first year but not after that.

 

[geebee]

shortrod2 wrote:

geebee wrote:
Not to rain on anyone's parade, but a trouts brain is not capable of memory, it's not complex enough or wired that way.

Wrong. Trout in pressured areas do often act differently than trout in non-pressured areas. This is learned behavior. In order to have learned behavior they must have memory.

IMHO you're confusing memory with instinct.

Trout act diffrently when herons and comorants are around too don't they ? - they take cover, feed carefully etc don't they ? thats instinct not memory.

you're projecting on to the trout the ability to reason which they don't have - they can't think in the way that we do - we use reason and deduction, they are limited just to deduction - food or not food, safe or not safe, cold or warm, can breathe or can't breathe....

they just don't have the cognitive ability to make decisions.

 

[mario66pens]

geebee wrote:

shortrod2 wrote:

geebee wrote:
Not to rain on anyone's parade, but a trouts brain is not capable of memory, it's not complex enough or wired that way.

Wrong. Trout in pressured areas do often act differently than trout in non-pressured areas. This is learned behavior. In order to have learned behavior they must have memory.

you're projecting on to the trout the ability to reason which they don't have - they can't think in the way that we do - we use reason and deduction, they are limited just to deduction - food or not food, safe or not safe, cold or warm, can breathe or can't breathe....

they just don't have the cognitive ability to make decisions.

Spot on GB