troutwilleatflies
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- Joined
- Mar 3, 2007
- Messages
- 475
I'm another flystop customer,they are great flies for the price and I have no problem with them.They were in Penna. up until a year ago,so they were local.
Riverbum
- Thread starter Troutking
- Start date
DGC
Active member
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2008
- Messages
- 897
This is an important topic.
I have tried to find information about fly sweatshops in Africa, the Orient, and South America. Even in this internet age, that kind of information is hard to come by. If anyone has knowledge of contract fly manufacturing in these locations, and the extent sweatshop flies wind up here, I would be very interested in what you have to say.
No doubt the big box retail buyer professionals who work for Cabela's, Bass Pro, and others are familiar with the landscape. Some of the well-traveled and connected "big name" fly fishers such as Borger should know as well. By all means if you have talked to any of them, speak up.
The "good" offshore fly companies such as Brookside, Umpqua and Targus seem to charge much more for their flies. Is that because they don't use sweatshops? That is what some of the available information suggests. The area they work out of is known for many skilled and, as far as local living standards are concerned, decently compensated workers. I have no problem with these. Thailand residents need to support their families, too, and a story like this seems compelling:
http://www.brooksideflies.com/aboutus.php
American tiers working independently can compete on that playing field.
But I simply don't trust the 50-cent fly outfits, even if their flies are of top quality (I doubt they are, but I don't know because I tie my own). I can't prove that sweatshop or otherwise exploited labor is involved, but it sure seems probable. And it doesn't make it ok just because the proprietor is from PA. It also seems probable that at least some American fly shops take advantage. Just because if came from a shop doesn't mean it was tied by the shop.
I guess if you are selling green weenies and walt's worms you can make some money on 50 cent flies with fairly treated labor. But for a Royal Wulff?
I know that all kinds of products we use every day have mysterious origins and sweatshop if not slave labor could be involved. That doesn't mean it is ok and we can just blame it on "progress."
This is the kind of thing that has to be worked on to the extent it can be, and flies are as good a place to start as any.
I have tried to find information about fly sweatshops in Africa, the Orient, and South America. Even in this internet age, that kind of information is hard to come by. If anyone has knowledge of contract fly manufacturing in these locations, and the extent sweatshop flies wind up here, I would be very interested in what you have to say.
No doubt the big box retail buyer professionals who work for Cabela's, Bass Pro, and others are familiar with the landscape. Some of the well-traveled and connected "big name" fly fishers such as Borger should know as well. By all means if you have talked to any of them, speak up.
The "good" offshore fly companies such as Brookside, Umpqua and Targus seem to charge much more for their flies. Is that because they don't use sweatshops? That is what some of the available information suggests. The area they work out of is known for many skilled and, as far as local living standards are concerned, decently compensated workers. I have no problem with these. Thailand residents need to support their families, too, and a story like this seems compelling:
http://www.brooksideflies.com/aboutus.php
American tiers working independently can compete on that playing field.
But I simply don't trust the 50-cent fly outfits, even if their flies are of top quality (I doubt they are, but I don't know because I tie my own). I can't prove that sweatshop or otherwise exploited labor is involved, but it sure seems probable. And it doesn't make it ok just because the proprietor is from PA. It also seems probable that at least some American fly shops take advantage. Just because if came from a shop doesn't mean it was tied by the shop.
I guess if you are selling green weenies and walt's worms you can make some money on 50 cent flies with fairly treated labor. But for a Royal Wulff?
I know that all kinds of products we use every day have mysterious origins and sweatshop if not slave labor could be involved. That doesn't mean it is ok and we can just blame it on "progress."
This is the kind of thing that has to be worked on to the extent it can be, and flies are as good a place to start as any.
I agree. There are many fly shops that buy flies tied overseas in bulk and resell them at their shop. So even buying from a local shop doesn't assure the fly was tied locally.
It is near impossible to compete with U.S. tied flies given that flies tied in underdeveloped nations are tied by people paid in "cents" per hour rather than "dollars" per hour.
I really don't have a good answer to solve the problem, except that 99.9% of my flies are tied in Exton, PA...at my tying desk.
YoughRiverGuide
Member
- Joined
- May 21, 2007
- Messages
- 282
Nice post, DGC--something I never even though to mention in my rather narrowly focused post the other day.
In each of the shops in which I've worked over the years, we always bought mix of flies from reputable outfits (though this didn't guarantee the quality of the fly) and local tiers. In all those years, I neither had an opportunity to buy quantities large enough nor did I ever encounter wholesale prices low enough to sell flies for $.50 per and make a profit. For me, that makes those who do sell for that price suspect.
In each of the shops in which I've worked over the years, we always bought mix of flies from reputable outfits (though this didn't guarantee the quality of the fly) and local tiers. In all those years, I neither had an opportunity to buy quantities large enough nor did I ever encounter wholesale prices low enough to sell flies for $.50 per and make a profit. For me, that makes those who do sell for that price suspect.
jaybo41
Active member
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2006
- Messages
- 1,012
I frequent my local fly shops, I make my major purchases there. Rods, waders, wading boots, gear bags, tippet I try to buy as much as possible from a fly shop. I like the personal touch and the service local shops provide.
At the same time, both shops I frequent I'm sure are buying their flys in bulk. In fact one of the shop owners once commented that hand tied flies are not profitible for him. Between the time it takes to tie them or pay somebody for tying, it's more hastle than it's worth. One guy's opinion. If I have the opportunity to buy hand tied flies in a fly shop I generally do so.
Yough, you make some good points that I certainly respect. On the flip side, have you thought about the differences between a traditional fly shop model such as those shops you have worked in and a virtual shop who's focus is based solely on flies, terminal tackle, fly boxes and t-shirts? I don't think he's paying a lease or rent on a storefront, but I can't say for sure. Also, the ability to virtually sell to the world, and buying in bulk would likely allow him to buy at a lower price I would have to believe. There is also no need to stock high priced items such as rods, reels, waders, wading boots, technical clothing etc. Low overhead costs would certainly allow for lower priced flies. I can't confirm this so as I'm not affiliated with theflystop, but I think it's got potential to be a reasonably accurate speculation.
Now I don't know where his flies are tied for sure, but I seem to recall from his website previously that his flies were tied on Targus hooks. I looked for this today, but was unable to confirm it. Which ever the case, it's a local operation, operated buy a good guy who gave me great service over the years in the fly shop he worked in. I'm glad to see his business doing well.
At the same time, both shops I frequent I'm sure are buying their flys in bulk. In fact one of the shop owners once commented that hand tied flies are not profitible for him. Between the time it takes to tie them or pay somebody for tying, it's more hastle than it's worth. One guy's opinion. If I have the opportunity to buy hand tied flies in a fly shop I generally do so.
Yough, you make some good points that I certainly respect. On the flip side, have you thought about the differences between a traditional fly shop model such as those shops you have worked in and a virtual shop who's focus is based solely on flies, terminal tackle, fly boxes and t-shirts? I don't think he's paying a lease or rent on a storefront, but I can't say for sure. Also, the ability to virtually sell to the world, and buying in bulk would likely allow him to buy at a lower price I would have to believe. There is also no need to stock high priced items such as rods, reels, waders, wading boots, technical clothing etc. Low overhead costs would certainly allow for lower priced flies. I can't confirm this so as I'm not affiliated with theflystop, but I think it's got potential to be a reasonably accurate speculation.
Now I don't know where his flies are tied for sure, but I seem to recall from his website previously that his flies were tied on Targus hooks. I looked for this today, but was unable to confirm it. Which ever the case, it's a local operation, operated buy a good guy who gave me great service over the years in the fly shop he worked in. I'm glad to see his business doing well.
wgmiller
Well-known member
Competition in business is good. It makes the good businesses better and the bad ones go away. I'm not saying this for fly shops - it applies across the board. There is a lot to be said for customer service and that often times can overcome price.
I've bought and will continue to buy flies from online sources. I've been in this hobby for a year or so myself and like to see what works and what doesn't before diving in too deep. I still buy some flies from local fly shops, but when I purchase in bulk, it's usually online. Consumer choice.
If the customer service in a business is good, then they have nothing to worry about. Their customers will keep coming back because they feel like their consumer dollars are valued...
Troutking - I know all too well what it's like being new to this and I feel much better slinging up a .50 fly in a tree than a 2.00 fly!!! :-D
I've bought and will continue to buy flies from online sources. I've been in this hobby for a year or so myself and like to see what works and what doesn't before diving in too deep. I still buy some flies from local fly shops, but when I purchase in bulk, it's usually online. Consumer choice.
If the customer service in a business is good, then they have nothing to worry about. Their customers will keep coming back because they feel like their consumer dollars are valued...
Troutking - I know all too well what it's like being new to this and I feel much better slinging up a .50 fly in a tree than a 2.00 fly!!! :-D
