Pigeon creek southeast PA

[Peyton]

Pigeon Creek is a good creek for anything except trout. It's classified as unable to support trout, yet I have caught a few from it. I have been trying to catch a 30" brown that lurks in the depth of a deep hole for 3 years, and it's only getting bigger. It's full of suckers and fallfish and huge spotted bass. even big grass carp at some sections, one even 3 feet long (it has since died or been washed out of that spot). I Have caught one tiny brook trout about 5 inches long, looked wild or native, not sure which it was. If you want some good non pressured fallfish, find a stretch of it that is public and hike to the end of public land, that is where the big fish live.

 

[Mike]

If the Pigeon Ck that you are referencing is the one that enters the Schuylkill, a PFBC electrofishing crew once went on a wild goose chase there looking wild trout at the request of a regional club rep. We found one (yearling or fingerling Brown Trout) in 3+ or 4+ sampling sites. I say 3+ or 4+ because extra sampling was done at the site where one was found to see if more were present near-by. The crew may have even sampled a trib near that site. The site was not in the headwaters and not near the mouth. Both of those areas produced no trout. The stream gets too warm. If there are bigger fish in that stream on occasion, they could enter from the Schuylkill when the river gets too warm in late spring.

 

[Peyton]

If the Pigeon Ck that you are referencing is the one that enters the Schuylkill, a PFBC electrofishing crew once went on a wild goose chase there looking wild trout at the request of a regional club rep. We found one (yearling or fingerling Brown Trout) in 3+ or 4+ sampling sites. I say 3+ or 4+ because extra sampling was done at the site where one was found to see if more were present near-by. The crew may have even sampled a trib near that site. The site was not in the headwaters and not near the mouth. Both of those areas produced no trout. The stream gets too warm. If there are bigger fish in that stream on occasion, they could enter from the Schuylkill when the river gets too warm in late spring.

Funny thing is I have seen that brown in the summer there, and he disappeared last winter and came back in the spring, and it does drain into the schuykill

 

[Peyton]

Here is a rainbow my brother caught there on Septenmber 2, fell for a grasshopper.

 

[Mike]

That’s interesting. It is clearly a stocked fish that based on fin regeneration was probably a fish that was stocked in spring. Its slightly thin body structure suggests that it was suffering from some temperature problems during the summer, but not so bad that it became emaciated. Possible sources…swam into Pigeon from the river after having been stocked in another stream, escaped from a privately stocked pond in the Pigeon drainage, or was stocked directly in the creek by an angler or landowner.

 

[Peyton]

That’s interesting. It is clearly a stocked fish that based on fin regeneration was probably a fish that was stocked in spring. Its slightly thin body structure suggests that it was suffering from some temperature problems during the summer, but not so bad that it became emaciated. Possible sources…swam into Pigeon from the river after having been stocked in another stream, escaped from a privately stocked pond in the Pigeon drainage, or was stocked directly in the creek by an angler or landowner.

There apparently is a fellow fly fisher who puts the trout in that stretch. The big brown is always healthy and eating well, except for my flies.

 

[Peyton]

If the Pigeon Ck that you are referencing is the one that enters the Schuylkill, a PFBC electrofishing crew once went on a wild goose chase there looking wild trout at the request of a regional club rep. We found one (yearling or fingerling Brown Trout) in 3+ or 4+ sampling sites. I say 3+ or 4+ because extra sampling was done at the site where one was found to see if more were present near-by. The crew may have even sampled a trib near that site. The site was not in the headwaters and not near the mouth. Both of those areas produced no trout. The stream gets too warm. If there are bigger fish in that stream on occasion, they could enter from the Schuylkill when the river gets too warm in late spring.

Yesterday I landed 5 stocked rainbows and a massive 14” native brookie, picture is poor because the fishes health was more important and the water was in the mid 60°’s

 

[Mike]

The black outline on the trailing edge of the caudal fin and the bland coloration overall suggest it’s a stocked trout rather than a wild trout. Additionally, it would be difficult to find a source population of wild brook trout anywhere near that stream. The closest ones are near Douglasville and Monocacy..

 

[Peyton]

The black outline on the trailing edge of the caudal fin and the bland coloration overall suggest it’s a stocked trout rather than a wild trout. Additionally, it would be difficult to find a source population of wild brook trout anywhere near that stream. The closest ones are near Douglasville and Monocacy..

I don't think it's stocked, no fins were at all scuffed or regrown, and out of the water, it had decent colors. I've caught and seen multiple fingerling brook trout caught out of there in the past couple of years.

 

[Mike]

I don't think it's stocked, no fins were at all scuffed or regrown, and out of the water, it had decent colors. I've caught and seen multiple fingerling brook trout caught out of there in the past couple of years.

If you have seen fingerling brook trout (ST) caught there, a photo would most likely be appreciated by the area fisheries manager because whether there are wild ST or wild BT, the stream is not on the wild trout streams list and, therefore, is not getting the additional protections that are associated with that classification. When we searched for wild trout in the past at multiple sites from near the mouth to the headwaters, we only found one BT fingerling, which was not enough to classify the stream as a wild trout stream. That was probably 15-20 yrs ago and I have seen a stream go from no wild trout to class A in as little as 8 yrs.

 

[Peyton]

If you have seen fingerling brook trout (ST) caught there, a photo would most likely be appreciated by the area fisheries manager because whether there are wild ST or wild BT, the stream is not on the wild trout streams list and, therefore, is not getting the additional protections that are associated with that classification. When we searched for wild trout in the past at multiple sites from near the mouth to the headwaters, we only found one BT fingerling, which was not enough to classify the stream as a wild trout stream. That was probably 15-20 yrs ago and I have seen a stream go from no wild trout to class A in as little as 8 yrs.

I will have to dig up those photos, hopefully, I can get some underwater photos of a school of ST fingerlings that lives farther downstream.

 

[Peyton]

If you have seen fingerling brook trout (ST) caught there, a photo would most likely be appreciated by the area fisheries manager because whether there are wild ST or wild BT, the stream is not on the wild trout streams list and, therefore, is not getting the additional protections that are associated with that classification. When we searched for wild trout in the past at multiple sites from near the mouth to the headwaters, we only found one BT fingerling, which was not enough to classify the stream as a wild trout stream. That was probably 15-20 yrs ago and I have seen a stream go from no wild trout to class A in as little as 8 yrs.

Here you go, caught by some other kid there

 

[Mike]

This is getting more interesting. Do you know if there is a local school participating in the Trout In the Classroom program run by the PFBC? If there is a park near to or where these fish are showing up as large fingerlings, you can’t rule out that source especially if you are not catching multiple year classes. I speak from experience.

While electrofishing, we found beautiful, nice size (about 4.5 in) fingerling brook trout in a Wyomissing Ck park in the village of Mohnton. We knew that stream to be a wild brown trout stream. Suddenly, there were fingerling ST that looked wild. We went all over the drainage’s tribs trying to detect a wild ST source and only found browns. Finally, we learned from a teacher that a class in the TIC program had stocked their fingerlings a couple of months earlier about 100 or so yds from where we had found them.

Frankly, given the poor survival and/or residency performance of PFBC stocked adult ST in streams, I was quite surprised that the fingerling ST from the TIC program had lived that long and grown even larger in the wild. Additionally, so much for wild brown trout and stocked PFBC and Cooperative Nursery adult trout gobbling them up right away! Obviously, parks are heavily stocked yet the spring stocked fingerlings made it to late June or July.

 

[JerryC]

This is getting more interesting. Do you know if there is a local school participating in the Trout In the Classroom program run by the PFBC? If there is a park near to or where these fish are showing up as large fingerlings, you can’t rule out that source especially if you are not catching multiple year classes. I speak from experience.

Mike, I can back you on that. Several years ago, I think on this board, there was a discussion about folks, including myself, catching 4 and 5 inch brown trout with parr stripes in the Wissahickon. Speculation was that some of the hold over browns were actually spawning. Maybe a year before Covid shut us down, I was walking with my church group, and there was a group of kids and three or four adults gathered on the bank just upstream from Wise's Mill Road. One was obviously a teacher and was talking to the kids about the diversity of critters living in the creek. I asked one of the adults what was going and she told me this was last class of a project the kids had been doing. Raising trout in the classroom and then releasing them in the Wissahickon. My hopes of wild trout in the Wissahickon were dashed. Are there still fresh water mussels in the creek?

 

[Mike]

I never saw mussels there, but I may have missed them. Given the water quality, I would have been surprised to see them. If you are referring to the 25 cent size clam shells with the external ridges and presence in abundance, they are Asiatic Clams.

 

[Peyton]

None that I know of, I wish there was some in my school, but it would probably be dumped in French instead

 

[Mike]

Peyton, I spoke with the AFM and based on your tip and our previous survey from yrs ago, the present Area 6 crew surveyed Pigeon Ck looking for wild trout. While they did not find wild trout throughout or a big population, they found some wild Brown Trout in a somewhat extended portion of the stream, not just at one site. No ST were found…only BT. This was better than what my crew and I found in the 1990’s since we only found one small, wild BT at just one site and none at sites above or below that site. The stream is apparently gradually improving just like a number of wild BT streams or portions thereof in SE Pa. and while your tip on ST didn’t work out, at least a wild BT pop was found. That’s a lot better than no wild trout.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Does TIC still do brook trout? I love that it teaches the kids about our state fish I just hate the release part/ingraining of stocking behavior at that early age.

Back to original topic, I would really be interested to know where those fish are comming from. I think the TIC program has a coordinator with as master list at state level but could be mistaken, could check and see if nearby schools on it.

Mike or Peyton are there any near by streams they could have wandered over from I am not familiar with the area. I remember Peyton saying something about a neighbor stocking so coukd check with them as well. Also don’t know where electroshocking was done compared to capture of that fish.

 

[lestrout]

Yo FS - Valley Forge TU supports over a dozen TIC programs. I heard Dave Dickens commenting that F&BC had switched over from brookies to rainbows. I think they felt the bows would be raised in the classrooms more successfully.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Yo FS - Valley Forge TU supports over a dozen TIC programs. I heard Dave Dickens commenting that F&BC had switched over from brookies to rainbows. I think they felt the bows would be raised in the classrooms more successfully.

Yea I had thought they moved away from brook trout. but I thought it’s because they didn’t want to risk genetic introgression with brook trout when released but I was mistaken I guess thanks for clearing that up. If thats state wide that might eliminate that possibility for peyton’s friend’s brookie being a TIC fish.