Negative encounter with game warden

[pcray1231]

Well, got myself an expensive ticket yesterday. I recently bought a pistol, and I have had it about a month without getting a chance to shoot.

Anyway, I planned on shooting some this Saturday, but my plans fell through. I was goin to Cabelas on my way home from State College, and remembered that Schuylkill County had a PA game commission range. I couldn't remember if they had a pistol range, but thought I'd drive up and see.

I got there, and the rules said nothing about handguns. There was nobody with rifles around, but 2 other guys shooting handgun on the 50 yard range, though they were walking up and shooting from 20-25 yards. So I asked them if pistols were allowed, and they said yes, but only 3 rounds/magazine. I checked the regs and yes, it said that. So I joined them, we all would put 3 rounds in a magazine, walk up, establish a firing line, load the mag there, shoot 3 shots, and walk back to the benches.

Near the end a warden showed up and cited us all for having loaded weapons beyond the firing line. "Control of Property" is the citation, which to my understanding basically means "breaking a rule"??? Any legal types want to help me out with understanding that? In a way, we had established our own firing line, and the regs didn't say the benches were the official firing line. But I didn't argue, I hadn't read or thought through that rule so I am guilty. I just thought a warning should have sufficed, being that we were all being very safe, observing the 3 shot rule as to not load up the backstop with lead, and were not interfering with any rifle shooters, since there were none.

Supposed to get the citation in the mail in 1-2 weeks, and have to respond within 10 days, he said its just a ticket, nothing on criminal record or anything. Problem is, starting with the jam, I'm gonna be gone for 12 days on a fishing trip!

 

[rrt]

There are good wardens, and then there are the other kind. It sounds like you ran into one who is impressed with himself because he has a gun and a badge.

 

[pcray1231]

mods, feel free to move this to the OT section, I thought I had it there, sorry...

 

[gfen]

I regularly use the range at SGL 205, and its a well known fact that the like to park up hill from the range and listen for the amount of shots you fire before they come down around the bend and cite you for more than 3 rounds at a time.

They're also well known to be ruthless on that count, and pellets on the rifle course, but they I'd never heard of being cited for standing beyond the firing line, and I'm pretty sure I've been checked on more than once for that.

They also enforce that sundown rule, as I found out one evening well after sundown. I'm sure he also knew that I was busy thumbing rounds out of the magazine in my pocket when he got down there, too.

 

[Slate_Drake_9]

rrt wrote:
There are good wardens, and then there are the other kind. It sounds like you ran into one who is impressed with himself because he has a gun and a badge.

Let me get this straight. A law enforcement officer enforces a law and it's because he's full of himself.

Are you kidding me?

He could have been a real prick and made an example of these guys, but instead he wrote a citation and moved on with his day.

I'm guessing you're probably the same guy that will complain when there isn't a law enforcement officer (police, fish and boat officer, game officer, etc) around when someone breaks a law you care about to arrest them.

Thumbs down man.

 

[fadeaway263]

Pcray. I believe, but not possitive, that the citation will be issued from the local District Justice's Court. Just go there this week and ask for a copy of the citation and if you contest it a hearing date will be set which would take place after the Jam. You can always withdraw the not guilty plea so long as you do it well before the hearing date.

 

[albatross]

PCRay,

Its a shame you were cited when you were clearly making an effort to be safe and obey the rules as you understood them. I think a warning would have been appropriate.

As far as contesting the citation, your only real hope is that the warden doesn't show up at the hearing. If he does show up, the judge will probably defer to him as the "expert" on interpreting the rules.

 

[Fishidiot]

I think you got a raw deal.
If there were no clearly posted signs indicating the firing line (and I'm assuming there weren't otherwise you would have complied just as you did with the 3 shot rule) - and no one else was shooting long arms from back at that line - I'd say you were in compliance with common sense safety rules and should only have received a warning. Maybe take some photos of the range to assist in your defense and contest it(?).

 

[pcray1231]

hmm, I wasn't planning on contesting it. I don't deny that I broke the rule. I understood the rule to be one of safety, as well as convenience for rifle shooters. There were no rifle shooters present, and we established the same exact safety procedures, just further uprange. Yes, I can say I somewhat misunderstood the rule, I didn't see anything wrong with redefining the firing line since everyone present was in favor of that, communicated as such, and established a "line" (it was a light colored rock we used, and we all agreed on it).

But, I have to admit the onus is on me to understand the rules. Yes, I thought it could/should have been handled differently by the officer. But the bottom line is I did break the rule and will pay the fine.

The guy might have parked and listened for shots. Each of us only used 3 rounds throughout, however, there were 3 of us, with 3 separate guns, so from a distance you'd have heard three 3 round volleys in pretty quick succession between long pauses, which could be enough to make him drive out if he thought it was 1 gun.

My only worry is this 10 day thing with an extended vacation looming. Is there any way to contact the courthouse ahead of time and get everything square? Would it be Schuylkill Cty (place of offense) or Berks Cty (place of residence) courthouse?

Slate_Drake - I'm not really contesting the charge here, but what else could he have done to "make an example" of us? We only did one thing wrong, and got cited for it to the absolute full extent of the law. Handguns are allowed at the range. We never shot more than 3 rounds in a cycle. All 3 of us had carry permits, though they aren't necessary to be at a range. We were shooting paper targets on the supplied posts. Your post implies we violated a laundry list of rules, and that just isn't the case...

 

[JackM]

pc, I am not familiar with game laws and shooting range laws, but are you saying that there was some "line" clearly desigated as the firing line? If you saw such a thing, then it doesn't matter if you did not know the law required you to stay behind it. If you saw no such thing and all agreed to something to use as a firing line, then you are probably not guilty of an offense.

The hearing/trial would be at a local District Court, not the County Court. Venue would lie in the magisterial district where the offense allegedly occured. If you don't have the citation by the time you leave, then call the DJ's office, and see if anything was filed against you. Or leave them your name and phone number and tell them you will be away for how long and that you will respond to the citation as soon as you return if it has arrived while you were gone.

[size=xx-small]58 Pa. Code § 135.181. Rifle and handgun ranges.
(a) General provisions. In addition to § 135.2 (relating to unlawful actions) and except as provided in § 135.182 (relating to Ranges, State Game Lands No. 176), the following pertain to lands under Commission ownership, lease or jurisdiction, designated as rifle or handgun ranges:

(1) Rifle and handgun ranges are open from 8 a.m., prevailing time, until sunset Monday through Saturday and from 12 noon to sunset Sundays, unless otherwise posted; except the Sunday immediately preceding the regular antlered and antlerless deer seasons and the regular bear season, when the hours are 8 a.m. to sunset.

(2) A range may be reserved for exclusive use by an organized group from January 1 through October 1. An organized group desiring to reserve the range shall make necessary arrangements through the appropriate regional director or a designee at least 20 days in advance.

(3) An individual may not use the range when in use on days when it is reserved by an organized group.

(4) An individual or an organized group using the range is responsible for keeping the area clean and free of debris, and may not discard, deposit, leave or throw litter except in approved refuse containers. Range users shall remove targets from range backboards when shooting is completed and prior to leaving the range.

(5) The Commission is not responsible for anyone injured on the range. An individual using Commission owned ranges does so at his own risk and assumes all responsibility for injuries to a person or property caused by or to him.

(6) When more than one person is using the range, a range officer shall be designated.

(7) An individual under 16 years of age may not use the range unless accompanied by a person 18 years of age or older.

(8) The appropriate regional director or designee may close a range by posting signs to that effect.

(b) Prohibited acts. At a rifle and handgun range located on land under Commission ownership, lease or jurisdiction, except when authorized by the appropriate regional director or a designee for military or law enforcement training, it is unlawful to:

(1) Possess a loaded firearm, except at an established shooting station on the firing line.

(2) Discharge a firearm, except from an established shooting station on the firing line at a paper target placed on a permanent target backboard.

(3) Discharge armor piercing, incendiary, explosive, tracer or multiple projectile ammunition.

(4) Be intoxicated, use or possess an intoxicating beverage or controlled substance on the range.

(5) Possess an automatic weapon.

(6) Possess, load or discharge a firearm that contains more than three rounds of single projectile ammunition, except as provided in subsection (c).

(7) Shoot clay birds anywhere except areas designated by the Director by signs stating that clay bird shooting is permitted.

(c) Exceptions for a handgun range. At a Commission range specifically designated as a handgun range, it is permitted for an individual to load and discharge a handgun containing a maximum of six rounds of single projectile ammunition at any one time. Other rules and regulations pertaining to shooting ranges under Commission ownership, lease or jurisdiction shall be in effect.[/size]

Link To Source

 

[JakesLeakyWaders]

The fact that handguns are allowed, yet there is no handgun range of less than 50 yards is absurd.

I would plead not guilty most ranges have separate handgun ranges of 25 yards and less, even 10 and 15 yards.

It really is an unwritten rule about the firing line being the benches, but given that the range is lacking a distinct area to facilitate handguns and there were no rifles I would plead not guiltly take pictures of the range and rules/ lack of defination there of, and at the least show up to respectfully give my point of view.

I have rarely used a lawyer in court, however through careful observation of laws and procedures, and some attention to the details of particular situtions I've been in, I 've been able to have a few charges dropped over the years.

Having a friend who is a knowledgeable deputy sherriff, helps on occassion for quick advice.

The more infomation you gather in your favor, the better, and I have personally seen a judge give an officer the hairy eyeball more than once.

Law officers do not make good judgement 100 percent of the time. I personally respect the laws and officers but realize there is a reason we have a right to disagree with their judgement.

 

[pcray1231]

Jack,

There was a posted rule that said no loaded weapons beyond the firing line. However, there was not a description of what the firing line is, nor a sign saying "this is the firing line." There is a row of tables used to shoot rifles off of, so in most circumstances, it's pretty self-explanatory. We were shooting ahead of those tables.

So I would say we knew the rule existed, we knew and understood its purpose, and we knew the tables are the "typical" firing line. We knew that redefining the firing line probably would not be endorsed by the PA game commission if asked. But there was nothing explicitly stating you couldn't, and in this situation, doing so did not violate the purpose of the rule, it was not unsafe, and it was not inconveniencing anyone else. So we did, and in hindsight that was a mistake.

You have found and put in bold the correct legal jargon that we violated. The only thing that even could be argued is the definition of the "firing line" or "approved shooting stations." I'd probably fall on the losing side of that argument as the law is written. So we violated the law, but probably not the purpose of the law. It's not an excuse and I'm not trying to claim it as one.

My purpose is two fold. First, to point out that this conservation officer did enforce the law, but in a manner that in my opinion was kind of slimy given the circumstances. And second, to figure out how to clear this thing up without having to be worried about it for my entire vacation.

 

[jayL]

I would assume that the firing line is where everyone is firing, especially if one isn't explicitly designated. BS citation. I'd contest it.

 

[JackM]

The ten days to respond will start when the summons is issued. If you don't have it by the time you leave, you should be OK until you get home. I doubt thay will be out with an arrest warrant on the tenth day anyhow. Good luck.

 

[Slate_Drake_9]

pcray1231 wrote:

Slate_Drake - I'm not really contesting the charge here, but what else could he have done to "make an example" of us? We only did one thing wrong, and got cited for it to the absolute full extent of the law. Handguns are allowed at the range. We never shot more than 3 rounds in a cycle. All 3 of us had carry permits, though they aren't necessary to be at a range. We were shooting paper targets on the supplied posts. Your post implies we violated a laundry list of rules, and that just isn't the case...

pcray,

My comments aren't related to your situation, but to the individual that was bashing a law enforcement officer for doing his job.

I'm not saying that you did or didn't do anything beyond what you were cited for, but he could have come up with a laundry list of things to make it worse, as the laws and regulations are written in such a way that they can be interpreted in multiple ways, therefore citations could be written for multiple things to make a small infraction larger, at least until it gets to court for a judge to decide, which would make life worse for the person who was cited. Some officers will do this if the person acts like a jerk, which I assume you didn't.

So, no, I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm just saying he actually could have been a jerk and "impressed by himself" if he really wanted to.

 

[BelAirSteve]

I live in Maryland, and I only own a handgun and typically shoot at an indoor range, but I do have a general comment after reading the thread. I compare this to a guy bringing his kid to fish for trout with nightcrawlers and ends up in a ALO section. He probably didn't mean to, but he is obligated to know the rules that govern the area in which he is fishing.

Pcray, I don't mean this as a criticism of you. It seems that you did everything you thought was safe and correct, but unless you knew the rules for sure, it was probably a risk. Having said that, it also appears that there needs to be some further clarification of what exactly constitutes a firing line. As others have suggested, if you bring that up in court, I think it will be looked upon favorably.

Steve

 

[pcray1231]

BelAir,

I agree, I broke a law, I'm not trying to say otherwise. Nonetheless, I still consider it kind of a shady move by the conservation officer, as the spirit of the law was upheld, and there was no harm in any manner to anyone.

I don't see it quite the same as the guy with a kid and nightcrawlers in an ALO section. That does indeed violate the spirit of the ALO law. Though I would agree that if the man genuinely accidently found himself there and didn't know, if I were a fish warden I'd probably give a warning on a first offense.

Slate-Drake. I disagree, he was searching for more and didn't find it. He informed us that he had watched us, and if any gun had been loaded with more than 3 rounds, we'd each have a second citation. My feeling on the matter was that he may have observed for some time before coming forward, and the whole time he was just aching to find as much wrong as he could.

 

[gfen]

JakesLeakyWaders wrote:
The fact that handguns are allowed, yet there is no handgun range of less than 50 yards is absurd.

I would plead not guilty most ranges have separate handgun ranges of 25 yards and less, even 10 and 15 yards.

They get bulldozed out because too many idiots ruined it for the rest of us.

I think the main reason there were handgun ranges in those places were for guys who were waiting for their barrels to cool to have something to do. Unfortuantly, due to the lack of facilties, most people go up there and just shoot the carp out of the stakes that hold the targets in at teh short ranges.

Those guys get tired of replacing them, and then three days later finding them shot to splinters by shooters without manners.

I've violated the bench line many times, and I never thought I was in the wrong. Again, if everyone agrees to do so, and everyone exhibits proper behaviour, the firing line IS an arbitrary place, really, since its not ever defined.

I wish they'd let you stake your own target holders at your choice of range, but I certainly understand why you cannot.

 

[pcray1231]

Backstops is why you cannot. Heck, I think its a lot more dangerous to shoot a handgun at 50 yards than at 20, and harder on the range too since you are more likely to hit the posts. Yet, you're allowed to shoot them at 50, and not at 20.

Well, if anything comes of this, at least gfen knows they can hit you for this. I don't think I ever have violated the firing line rule before this, this is my first pistol I've owned, and this was the first day I ever shot it. Yes, I've fired pistols owned by others before, but always on private property. It shoots nice, in case you were wondering. Real accurate for a pistol. In about 40 rds fired, I did have 2 failures to feed. But both came from the same magazine, wondering if thats the culprit (I have 3 mags, and the other 2 are different brand and did not have a failure, though 40ish shots isn't much to go on). And I'm told it's not unusual for 1911's to do this before being broken in.

 

[ryanh]

you would have been better off shooting beer bottles in the woods like everyone else in schulkill county.