From the minnow chaser thread - An ethics lesson

ALL the freestone brookie streams I fish have many sub-legal brook trout. So what! They also have some larger trout. So because I may catch some small trout I should quit fishing them and if I don't I'm unethical. :-? Get lost! :-o
 
wgmiller wrote:
To reduce this to its simplest terms, isn't the mere act of impaling a fish on a sharpened piece of steel and dragging it through the water for one's enjoyment "unethical" in the first place??? ;-)
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^^^^this^^^^

I prefer my 5 inch brookies on my pizza :-o

seriously, like wgmiller said, if we REALLY cared about the fish, we would leave them the F@*k alone.
we like to catch fish, the fish don't really like it much.
 
The majority of the native brookies I caught last year were on a fly tied on a Mustad #79580 size 12, which is a 4xl streamer hook, on a pattern that I have adopted as my "go to" brookie fly. (Not a wooly bugger)
Unfortunately the two 3" fish I caught last year were also caught on this fly. :-( The good thing is they were both safely released and if they continue to have that kind of appetite they may possibly be a 5 or 6 incher when I catch them next year. I will continue this process until they die of old age or a great blue heron gets them. :lol:
 
I don't fish these kind of streams because you can catch a bunch of fish. I do it because I enjoy the places themselves. I enjoy getting way back in there, where you could fish a whole season and be unlikely to encounter another angler. I enjoy finding such places. I enjoy finding out which trickles support trout and which don't, and why. I enjoy learning an entire drainage, not just the main stem. I enjoy the fact that trout can survive in such places, even "underground" in the smallest of trickles. I've caught fish that were literally 3", and been giddy about it, because I did not expect to find trout in that little ditch. I enjoy casting in tight quarters. I enjoy all of the beauty the day entails, and being miles from a vehicle, with no real trails. Fish are just a bonus.

Call it hiking with a side interest. It's exploring. Fishing really isn't the point, it's just what you do when you get there. Getting there was the point.

Often you just cannot do that in places where legal sized fish are the norm. That's not to say you don't catch a legal one reasonably often, but it's not necessarily the expectation, nor the goal. For me, anyway, "legal" size loses all meaning once you commit to C&R.

I too would like to know Tim's rationale behind calling it unethical. You're not endangering any populations. You're not breaking any laws. You are learning more than most about what makes a stream tick, and what dangers they face.

Tim, it doesn't have to be your cup of tea. I understand that, and there's lots of types of fishing that aren't my cup of tea, but I don't go around calling them unethical. You need to explain your rationale on WHY it's unethical.
 
Swattie87 wrote:
TimMurphy wrote:

If you have little to no chance of catching a legal sized brook trout in the stream you are fishing and you continue to fish it, YOU ARE UNETHICAL!
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Tim - Just so we're not assuming and putting words in your mouth...could you please explain specifically why you think the above behavior makes one unethical? I reread both of your posts in the thread and although it's clear to me you believe that behavior to be unethical, I am not exactly sure of the details behind your argument.

Thanks,

Swattie
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Dear swattie,

It's all about the rules of fair chase and respect for your quarry.

Sport fishing is more than just getting out to amuse yourself within the boundary of law, it's about having respect for the quarry you target.

If all that you can realistically expect to encounter is something that you are not legally entitled to possess and you continue to fish that stream to me it's rather logical to conclude that you are lacking in ethics.

That's my point.

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂
 
This is the dumbest thread I have ever seen. I think I have heard it all now. It seems to me that Tim has written the book on ethics, hence why he thinks he is entitled to tell people what they can and cannot catch.
 
I have been following this thread all afternoon, I honestly really seem that it started all because a guy was proud of what he had tied. I saw the ties and they are great, whether he uses them for big old 43 footers or the normal 4-5 brookie is his business!!!!! Tim I must say that you sir are wrong in all you said!!!!!! It seems to me that you either have the absolute perfect spot in which you cast a fly (no matter what the size) and you catch a whopper everytime!!!! Or you head is way up your butt and dont realize that no fish is actually targeted.....we all just LOVE to catch fish on a fly rod. You obviously are agrumpy old man that likes to stir the massess or just...ugh. Look the ethical thing to do (and I am sure 100% of us all do this) is if you dont have a keeper on the line, gently remove hook, and release back....SIMPLE. IMHO upo CAN NOT "target a species of animal you can not see in plain site. You target deer not fish. The fish will eat what he wants to you have absolute no control over that (and if you do we would call you god). Maybe you should open your eyes and take fishing for what its worth....its fun, relaxing and escape from reality, essentially an escape from peole like yourself who have to criticize EVERYthing another does so you can be happy.....No wonder I dont get on here much anymore.......So disgusted
 
Thanks for the explanation Tim. I disagree with most of it, but understand your position better now.

I don't see anything inherently unfair or disrespectful in pursuing Brook Trout on a catch and release basis with a reasonably sized, barbless fly. We're not talking about dynamiting em' up here. Agree to disagree on those points I suppose.

From an ethical perspective, being able to legally posses a fish has absolutely no bearing if you're C&R fishing. If you're concerned about injury to a fish you're intending to release, then yes, that potentially could become an ethical issue...but then one must look at the manner in which they are pursuing and catching the fish. Are you injuring a lot of fish? Are fish not swimming away strong after releasing them? If so, and you're C&R fishing then yeah, you need to reflect upon your methods.

I don't notice an appreciably higher injury rate on Brookies under 7" than I do on larger fish, or other species I fish for. Sometimes one takes a hook wrong...it happens...and we all feel bad when it does, but this can just as easily happen to a larger fish...taking a foul hook to the eye, hook to the gills, etc. The only way to avoid the risk of injuring the fish completely is to not fish for them...I think you know this though.

Let's take it easy on Tim guys...he's entitled to his opinion too.
 
I'm more concerned about the fish pictures I see on this site. A squeezing death grip on them, or a fish on dry land all for the sake of an e-peen picture. I once asked Mike from the PFBC about this and he said there are studies that show increased mortality from such activity.
 
jabink84- "This is the dumbest thread I have ever seen. I think I have heard it all now. It seems to me that Tim has written the book on ethics, hence why he thinks he is entitled to tell people what they can and cannot catch."

Thank you!! All i said to start this stupid thread was to tie smaller flies for brookies. An people like Timmurphy and Chaz think they are gods gift to fly fishing. Both of them can go play in traffic for all i care.
 
If all that you can realistically expect to encounter is something that you are not legally entitled to possess and you continue to fish that stream to me it's rather logical to conclude that you are lacking in ethics.
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By this logic, streams with C&R regs would be unethical to fish at all. Or delayed harvest streams prior to June 15. And for Trophy Trout regs, it would be unethical to knowingly target a 14" trout.

For me, fishing is not a contest between me and the fish. I understand those that look at it this way. And occasionally I even get this mindset and take part. Variety is good. But most of the time I'm not pitting myself against anything as if it's a chess match or something. I'm merely enjoying a day in the great outdoors.

Your sense of ethics stems from athletic sports. Respect for an opponent. But a fish is not my opponent. And angling ethics isn't about respect for a fish. It's about respect for other anglers who also just wish to enjoy themselves. If you harm a fish, the ethical issue is that noone else will ever enjoy catching that fish. It occasionally happens to all of us. My test is that if every angler on this stream did what I am doing, would the experience suffer? If yes, then I need to re-evaluate what I'm doing. If no, it's ethical.
 
pcray1231 wrote:
If all that you can realistically expect to encounter is something that you are not legally entitled to possess and you continue to fish that stream to me it's rather logical to conclude that you are lacking in ethics.
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By this logic, streams with C&R regs would be unethical to fish. Or delayed harvest streams prior to June 15. And for Trophy Trout regs, it would be unethical to knowingly target a 14" trout.
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Dear Pcray,

Did you actually just write this?

When you deliberately target sub-legal fish under the guise of practicing catch and release what you really are doing is making a conscious decision to fish over fish that under no circumstance may you ever have in your possession.

Clearly that is different than following the published rules as they are written regarding C&R or other special regulation waters.

If you honestly can't see the difference between abiding by a law, as required by C&R or another special regulation, and electing to exercise a personal choice there is no reason for me to continue.

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

 
When you target any trout in a C&R reg stream, you are making a conscious decision to fish over fish that under no circumstance may you ever have in your possession.

I don't see the difference.

Likewise, targeting sub-legal fish on a C&R basis is indeed following published rules and regulations. In some cases it's even posted just the same (see brook trout enhancement regs).

And I'm not going to call an angler who takes part unethical. But if you want to assign degrees of unethical, IMO, it is MUCH more unethical to target stocked fish than it is to target sub-legal wild fish. It encourages the culture of stocked fisheries, and stocking is much more damaging than C&Ring wild fisheries.

Regards,

Pat Ray
 
And what the heck to you mean "guise" of practicing C&R. I would venture to say the harm rate on the little guys is considerably less than it is on bigger fish in bigger streams. Flies too big to take deep. Cold water at all times of year. The fight lasts seconds.
 
This is the dumbest thread I have ever seen. I think I have heard it all now. It seems to me that Tim has written the book on ethics, hence why he thinks he is entitled to tell people what they can and cannot catch.
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LOL! Tim posts dumber threads than I do! he he he

 
This is why i only fish for 6 pond lake superior Coaster brook trout. The most elite brook trout
 
I understand and empathize with Tims position. However, if they are within the legal requirements of the law, let them go out and kill all the fish they want under the guise of C&R. It's like watching the "sportsman" on the Tully pound the confluence at the Papermill in late August with 76 degree water, 8x tippet and 14 minute fight times and being proud of themselves for C&R. Just keep and eat the fish.
 
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