Fish ID help

[Fish Sticks]

Rosyside dace do well in combination wild Brown Trout too. I would categorize them as a cool water species, probably more likely to be found with Brown Trout and in transition zones from coldwater to warmwater environments. This is another native species that coexists quite well with wild Brown Trout populations in the lower Susquehanna Basin.

” co-exists”, has this been studied? because i doubt their size and demographic structure has been unaltered by invasive brown trout.

We tend to blame agriculture and other stream factors entirely for the disappearance of certain dace, minnows, shiner and darter species but as you can see we have ignored invasive predators.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312175241_Co-varying_impacts_of_land_use_and_non-native_brown_trout_on_fish_communities_in_small_streams

“Layered over the shift in thermal communities was the presence of large-bodied (piscivorous) brown trout, which along with agricultural land use, was a consistent determinant of community diversity and presence-absence of nine common native species. Small-bodied taxa (minnows, darters) were the most responsive to the presence of these large non-native predators. Our results highlight how the presence of a non-native species can modify the interactions between natural and anthropogenic stressor gradients and therefore confound the ability to detect signals between land use stressors and local stream community composition.”

 

[Beweav]

No. You'd be better off fishing for browns. They are cooler anyhow

Give me little brook trout over these drab stockies any day. I caught this on the same tiny stream. I'm just trying to figure out why we need these in the beautiful wilderness? It's in a state forest, and this was up near the headwaters. Why stock big browns in the middle of nowhere over a fantastic population of native trout?

 

[Fish Sticks]

Give me little brook trout over these drab stockies any day. I caught this on the same tiny stream. I'm just trying to figure out why we need these in the beautiful wilderness? It's in a state forest, and this was up near the headwaters. Why stock big browns in the middle of nowhere over a fantastic population of native trout? View attachment 1641230788View attachment 1641230789View attachment 1641230790

Yea there are a lot of people(including DCNR) asking PA Fish and Boat this currently.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

I think most of the brightly colored minnows in American streams need cold, well-oxygenated water with some current flow. It might be possible to keep some species in an aquarium, but it would take some doing.

Probably true, but I think the Rainbow Darter might not need all of that. They live in the Susquehanna 🤷

 

[Prospector]

I fished the Rapidan in Virginia and caught some dace that looked like those pictured, but slightly larger. The stream was loaded with them. It was July and the trout had migrated upstream but the dace were plentiful where the trout had vacated.

 

[Mike]

Probably true, but I think the Rainbow Darter might not need all of that. They live in the Susquehanna 🤷

Not the Susquehanna…the Allegheny Drainage unless someone has introduced yet another darter to the Susquehanna Basin, eg Greenside, Banded

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Not the Susquehanna…the Allegheny Drainage unless someone has introduced yet another darter to the Susquehanna Basin, eg Greenside, Banded

No you are right, I misspoke.

 

[Beweav]

I have not seen a rainbow darter since I was a kid in Bradford PA. We always loved catching them as kids with cups or nets. I'd love to see one again. Mike, are you saying that they don't live down here in south central PA?

 

[Fish Sticks]

I fished the Rapidan in Virginia and caught some dace that looked like those pictured, but slightly larger. The stream was loaded with them. It was July and the trout had migrated upstream but the dace were plentiful where the trout had vacated.

Rapidan largely devoid of brown trout is my understanding. Its a large river system dominated by wild native brook trout without stocking is my understanding. Might have something to do with larger size and high density

 

[Fish Sticks]

Not the Susquehanna…the Allegheny Drainage unless someone has introduced yet another darter to the Susquehanna Basin, eg Greenside, Banded

Green side and banded darter are pretty invasive and have displaced native chesapeake log perch. I am taking a group of kids to net them today in the swatty. All you do is drag an aquarium net for like 2 feet in a riffle and you get a couple

 

[Mike]

” co-exists”, has this been studied? because i doubt their size and demographic structure has been unaltered by invasive brown trout.

We tend to blame agriculture and other stream factors entirely for the disappearance of certain dace, minnows, shiner and darter species but as you can see we have ignored invasive predators.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312175241_Co-varying_impacts_of_land_use_and_non-native_brown_trout_on_fish_communities_in_small_streams

“Layered over the shift in thermal communities was the presence of large-bodied (piscivorous) brown trout, which along with agricultural land use, was a consistent determinant of community diversity and presence-absence of nine common native species. Small-bodied taxa (minnows, darters) were the most responsive to the presence of these large non-native predators. Our results highlight how the presence of a non-native species can modify the interactions between natural and anthropogenic stressor gradients and therefore confound the ability to detect signals between land use stressors and local stream community composition.”

Apparently the rosysides did not read the scientific literature.😂

I have not seen a rainbow darter since I was a kid in Bradford PA. We always loved catching them as kids with cups or nets. I'd love to see one again. Mike, are you saying that they don't live down here in south central PA?

Yes. The multiple beautifully colored darter species found in NW Pa are not naturally occurring in the Susquehanna Basin, including tribs in the lower Susquehanna. In SE Pa, including the lower Susq, we have two native darters and two from outside (greenside and banded) of their natural river systems. The natives are the tessellated darter, which is pretty bland in color, and the shield darter, which is not colorful but has a very cool color pattern. Shield darters were much more common in central Pa when I worked in multiple regions. We only ever found a few sites in SE Pa. They were always a surprise and a welcomed sight. We even once found one in the lower Schuylkill near Conshohocken.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Apparently the rosysides did not read the scientific literature.😂

Yes. The multiple beautifully colored darter species found in NW Pa are not naturally occurring in the Susquehanna Basin, including tribs in the lower Susquehanna. In SE Pa, including the lower Susq, we have two native darters and two from outside (greenside and banded) of their natural river systems. The natives are the tessellated darter, which is pretty bland in color, and the shield darter, which is not colorful but has a very cool color pattern. Shield darters were much more common in central Pa when I worked in multiple regions. We only ever found a few sites in SE Pa. They were always a surprise and a welcomed sight. We even once found one in the lower Schuylkill near Conshohocken.

Your mention of the roseysides nots reading the literature speaks to a common fallacy that because there is some of a species left still that they have not been negatively affected or are safe from near future extirpation. You may find more of a darter or minnow species in the same stream you find more wild invasive brown trout as well and this often speaks to the stream and does not account for the negative interactions between invasive species…………this was the whole point of the “literature”. Again, their population demographics, genetics, and other variables have to be studied to show no impact and we instead just use mere presence as a license to do what we want with these non game species habitats, its lazy and sad and partially why we are in a 6th mass extinction event.

 

[Mike]

I’m not buying this great concern. Just like rabbits and mice, many of these prey fish species have high reproductive rates. Why? Because their niche includes being forage for other predators, advancing energy up the food web. There’s no shortage of rosyside dace, blacknose dace, longnose dace, tesselated darters, sculpins, etc in small or smallish wild brown trout streams. Aspects of the habitat/environment and biogeography will allow them to co-exist or favor one over the other. In many of the small or smallish streams of which I am speaking, remove the wild BT and there is no apex predator (fish) in the cool or coldwater environment. Additionally, you’ll be hard-pressed to find more than the very occasional wild BT longer than 12 inches in such streams anyway. Up until the size of 12 inches, wild BT primarily feed on macroinvertebrates.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I’m not buying this great concern. Just like rabbits and mice, many of these prey fish species have high reproductive rates. Why? Because their niche includes being forage for other predators, advancing energy up the food web. There’s no shortage of rosyside dace, blacknose dace, longnose dace, tesselated darters, sculpins, etc in small or smallish wild brown trout streams. Aspects of the habitat/environment and biogeography will allow them to co-exist or favor one over the other. In many of the small or smallish streams of which I am speaking, remove the wild BT and there is no apex predator (fish) in the cool or coldwater environment. Additionally, you’ll be hard-pressed to find more than the very occasional wild BT longer than 12 inches in such streams anyway. Up until the size of 12 inches, wild BT primarily feed on macroinvertebrates.

Brown trout have negative impacts on sculpins(west and east), darters(west virginia candy darter), native crayfish, and large concerns for hellbenders. Simply pointing out that all ecosystems have predators ignores the fact that these predator prey relationships have checks and balances from co-evolved defense mechanisms. When you throw an invasive species in the mix there is no chemical signaling/innate predator recognition like with native predators in some cases(helbender) or in others there would have been bo predator like brown trout period occupying a cool water niche. We have seen brown trout decimate galaxids, himilayan snow trout(cyprnids not trout), native trout species and many other small fish. We are past the point that any one can make a serious argument that brown trout are “coexisting” and not having a negative impact, theres no scientific leg to stand on with over 100 studies documenting their negative impcts as invasive species. Especially if you consider thats the tip of the iceberg, most of the harm is probably yet to be discovered because unless we are talking about brown trout affecting another trout its studied very little.

 

[Mike]

Brown trout have negative impacts on sculpins(west and east), darters(west virginia candy darter), native crayfish, and large concerns for hellbenders. Simply pointing out that all ecosystems have predators ignores the fact that these predator prey relationships have checks and balances from co-evolved defense mechanisms. When you throw an invasive species in the mix there is no chemical signaling/innate predator recognition like with native predators in some cases(helbender) or in others there would have been bo predator like brown trout period occupying a cool water niche. We have seen brown trout decimate galaxids, himilayan snow trout(cyprnids not trout), native trout species and many other small fish. We are past the point that any one can make a serious argument that brown trout are “coexisting” and not having a negative impact, theres no scientific leg to stand on with over 100 studies documenting their negative impcts as invasive species. Especially if you consider thats the tip of the iceberg, most of the harm is probably yet to be discovered because unless we are talking about brown trout affecting another trout its studied very little.

When you discover harm in Pa in small/smallish stream systems caused by wild BT other than to ST, let me know. Simply foraging is not harm. Major shifts in species relative abundance that can’t be related to positive or negative habitat changes (chemical or physical), natural variations in year class strength, or other reductions or increases in pollution would get my attention. And to reiterate, BT are primarily macroinvertebrate foragers, including crayfish, at lengths less than 12 inches. In the the systems I have specifically described, those that are most likely to harbor sizable rosyside dace populations, one is hard pressed to find many BT over 12 inches.

 

[Fish Sticks]

When you discover harm in Pa in small/smallish stream systems caused by wild BT other than to ST, let me know. Simply foraging is not harm. Major shifts in species relative abundance that can’t be related to positive or negative habitat changes (chemical or physical), natural variations in year class strength, or other reductions or increases in pollution would get my attention. And to reiterate, BT are primarily macroinvertebrate foragers, including crayfish, at lengths less than 12 inches. In the the systems I have specifically described, those that are most likely to harbor sizable rosyside dace populations, one is hard pressed to find many BT over 12 inches.

Well aside from Dr. Kirks paper I posted demonstrating a strong negative relationship you won’t find much because thats a pandoras box for hatchery program/current managment goals PFBC conveniently not going to open.

 

[Mike]

Well aside from Dr. Kirks paper I posted demonstrating a strong negative relationship you won’t find much because thats a pandoras box for hatchery program/current managment goals PFBC conveniently not going to open.

And then you have an excellent Pa. Class A BT population in essentially a tail-race fishery where forage was generally lacking, not absent but limited, due to the largely silty/field gravel substrate and the fact that the stream had originally been a transitional stream at best with respect to water temps. Then sculpins were introduced to provide an alternative reproducing forage fish population that would help stimulate more BT to grow beyond 12 inches and despite sculpins being very attractive BT forage fish the sculpin population grew/expanded at the riffle locations of introduction that were examined. This took very little time despite the substantial abundance of BT.

 

[Fish Sticks]

And then you have an excellent Pa. Class A BT population in essentially a tail-race fishery where forage was generally lacking, not absent but limited, due to the largely silty/field gravel substrate and the fact that the stream had originally been a transitional stream at best with respect to water temps. Then sculpins were introduced to provide an alternative reproducing forage fish population that would help stimulate more BT to grow beyond 12 inches and despite sculpins being very attractive BT forage fish the sculpin population grew/expanded at the riffle locations of introduction that were examined. This took very little time despite the substantial abundance of BT.

You have to control for variables other than what tour looking at, observational data is dangerous to make conclusions from.

Heres a study suggesting otherwise

“To investigate whether introductions of nonnative trout affect growth and diet of nongame fish in small streams, we designed a field experiment to examine interactions between slimy sculpin Cottus cognatus and native brook trout Salvelinus fontinalis or nonnative brown trout Salmo trutta. We hypothesized that brown trout would compete with and reduce growth of slimy sculpin. We expected no change in slimy sculpin growth in treatments with brook trout because the two species co-occur in their native range and thus may have evolved methods to partition resources and decrease competitive interactions. Enclosures (1 m2) were stocked with (1) juvenile brown trout and slimy sculpin, (2) juvenile brook trout and slimy sculpin, or (3) slimy sculpin alone (control). Fish were stocked at three densities to examine intraspecific versus interspecific competition. Replicates of each treatment were placed in riffles in Valley Creek, Minnesota, and six experimental trials were conducted over three summers (2002-2004). Brown trout presence was associated with reduced growth of large slimy sculpin in enclosures, whereas brook trout presence produced no change in slimy sculpin growth; these effects did not depend on fish density. Brown trout or brook trout presence was not associated with shifts in the diets of slimy sculpin, indicating that reduced slimy sculpin growth in the presence of brown trout was not due to prey selection or prey availability changes. Our research suggests that effects on growth of slimy sculpin in Valley Creek differ between introduced brown trout and native brook trout; however, the mechanisms underlying changes in slimy sculpin growth are unclear. Although brook trout and brown trout appear to fill similar ecological roles in small, coldwater streams, brown trout may negatively impact growth of nongame fish.”

USGS Publications Warehouse

To investigate whether introductions of nonnative trout affect growth and diet of nongame fish in small streams, we designed a field experiment to examine interactions between slimy sculpin Cottus cognatus and native brook trout Salvelinus fontinalis or nonnative brown trout Salmo trutta. We...

pubs.er.usgs.gov

 

[TheBluegillMaster]

Me and my friends tried to catch some dace and chubs from a local run for crappie bait and we caught these interesting guys. I’m pretty sure the darter is a tessalated darter, the sculpin is a blue ridge or Potomac sculpin and the shiner is a common shiner I believe, I could be wrong though. We let those guys go and only kept blacknose dace and creek chubs

 

[Fish Sticks]

Me and my friends tried to catch some dace and chubs from a local run for crappie bait and we caught these interesting guys. I’m pretty sure the darter is a tessalated darter, the sculpin is a blue ridge or Potomac sculpin and the shiner is a common shiner I believe, I could be wrong though. We let those guys go and only kept blacknose dace and creek chubs

Those are good looking fish. Looks more like a blue ridge sculpin than a mottled sculpin, and shiner for sure. Not entirely sure about tessellated darter though. I am used to them having a sub orbital bar and I don’t see one. Ask mike