Black Walnut trees counter acid rain?

[SpottedCharr]

This is something that occurred to me some years ago after I had read an entire book about black walnut trees. Black walnuts influence the soul around them by raising the PH. That is, the soil turns basic (is that the right word?) Any chemists here?

Well, couldn't we plant these trees in the headwaters of streams suffering from acid rain? Perhaps they could create a buffer. I am certainly not well educated in chemistry, but this thought has often encouraged me as it could offer some balancing effect to many of our marginal but otherwise promising mountain streams.

I know that limestone is normally employed to counter acid. But of course this is only a temporary solution.

Any thoughts?

 

[Chaz]

I'm not sure you got it right, I think they are found in basic soils because that is what they prefer. Early settlers looked for these trees because they knew from their experience in Europe that walnut trees grew in fertile soils. They may take up acids from the soils around them, soils that are mildly acidic but that is different from turning acid soil to alkaline soil.

 

[troutbert]

SpottedCharr wrote:
This is something that occurred to me some years ago after I had read an entire book about black walnut trees. Black walnuts influence the soul around them by raising the PH. That is, the soil turns basic (is that the right word?) Any chemists here?

Do you have any references about that on the web? Or can you give a direct quote from the book? I've never head that "Black walnuts influence the soul around them by raising the PH."

As Chaz said, black walnuts are found growing in fertile soils, not acidic soils. But that's not because they TURNED the soil fertile. They grew there because the soil was fertile in the first place, because of the geology.

Black walnuts are found commonly in limestone soils. There are also black walnuts growing along Pine Creek for example. That's a freestone stream but it is a fertile freestone stream.

Along the "acid rain victim" streams you will not find black walnuts growing. I'm fairly certain that they would just die if planted there.

The cure for acid rain is at the source, primarily at coal burning power plants. The problem will be fixed there, or it won't be fixed.

 

[Wmass]

I am not sure about black walnut trees, but I do know that Poplar trees are used to detoxify soil and to improve conditions. Poplars are fast growing and they have been genetically modified to pick up certain contaminants in the soil. They are being tested to remove mining contaminants and heavy metals.

 

[CRB]

They sure do a thing to garden. Being so dry last summer, I watered just about eery day in June. By July my tomatoes were shriveled and wilting . Never had a crop of tomatoes so dismal. Seams the roots were attracted to the watering and they release a toxin into the soil.
BTW had a great crop of nuts.
CRB

 

[Maurice]

I don't know about the PH but Black walnuts do produce an effect on its surroundings. It emits a chemical called juglone that is toxic to many plants. Tomatos are one. Usually when you see walnut trees you see little else growing around them.

blackwalnut.

 

[FarmerDave]

SpottedCharr wrote:
This is something that occurred to me some years ago after I had read an entire book about black walnut trees. Black walnuts influence the soul around them by raising the PH. That is, the soil turns basic (is that the right word?) Any chemists here?

Well, couldn't we plant these trees in the headwaters of streams suffering from acid rain? Perhaps they could create a buffer. I am certainly not well educated in chemistry, but this thought has often encouraged me as it could offer some balancing effect to many of our marginal but otherwise promising mountain streams.

I know that limestone is normally employed to counter acid. But of course this is only a temporary solution.

Any thoughts?

Hmmm, I never gave it much thought, but it might be true. Black Walnuts are loaded with acid, especially the hulls (tannic acid), and the acid has to come from someplace, right?. The wood itself is even acidic. But I doubt it would help all that much.

Chaz, I think you are wrong, but I'm not positive. Also, maple have massive root systems (massive amounts of tiny roots) that pull the moisture and nutrients out of the soil. Poplar are just about as bad. You don’t want them near the French draining, or the septic system, either. They will plug them up with roots. Planting a garden under a maple tree is a waste of time. Watering the garden just helps the tree. By the way, last year I had a great crop of Tomatoes, not only in quantity, but in size. Peppers did well, too. The year before, they rotted on the vine. The garden is close to 100 feet from the nearest big trees (maple, walnut, and American black cherry).

Maurice, that sounds right. I knew that very little would grow under Walnut trees, but I didn’t know what it was. They don’t seem to effect the weeds though. I have some kind of flowering landscaping plants that are thriving under them. I don’t know what it is called, but it is doing very well. I simply transplanted from another area, and the stuff took off. It is a grassing looking thing with purplish flowers. If anyone wants some, come get it, because it needs thinned again and I ran out of places to put it. Hostas seem to be doing well also, but other things not so well.

I also read that strawberry plants put something into the soil, and tomatoes won’t do well near them, either.

Getting a good crop of maple syrup this year.

 

[skeeter]

I tend to agree with you but I think for the black walnuts to grow and take well, depending on the severity of the acid deposition, some sort of liming would still have to be implemented prior to planting. Black walnuts unfortunately don't tolerate acidic soils and require a ph between 5 and 7-almost neutral. I agree with you that black walnuts probably and do provide a better "long-term" buffering capacity than repeated liming but still some sort of site preparation would have to take place.
Aside from pH the soil may be void of nutrients and minerals so fertilizing would also need to be considered.
Also black walnuts do better in somewhat dryer, well drained soils, i.e. away from frequent inundation, so areas along or marginally within the floodplain are most suitable.

 

[FarmerDave]

Skeeter, I agree. I just didn't state all that. As far as the fertilizer, I doubt that would be needed. Black walnut don't like swampy or continuously wet soil. they require deep moist well drained soils which is why they are often found along streams. They do well along streams that flood occasionally during dormant seasons, but will not do well in areas that flood often during the growing season. Acid is more of a problem in the smaller freestone streams, and they tend not to flood over their banks very often during the growing season. And when they do, they go back down rather quickly. they also have a large tap root which means they are good for holding the soil.

I honestly don't know what PH they prefer but the consensus is what you said. I had just assumed they like acid because of all the acid in those darn nuts. A PH of 5 is fairly acidic, but it is at the bottom of the range for those trees, and probably above the range for the soils along streams with significant acid problems. Therefore, some liming probably would be required.

I got a pretty good benefit from this discussion. Each year I have to clean up probably a half a ton if those darn nuts from my back yard. while searching for more info, I found a place within an hours drive that will buy them if I haul them there. The company is out of Missouri, and i had already known about them. They have places that take them in many locations, but I didn't know they had one within 50 miles of my place. I believe that they will hull them and pay you for what is left. Hey, if I have to pick them up anyway, it is just as easy to throw them in the utility trailer as it is to throw them in the back of the UTV and haul them to the woods.

It might come close to paying for the gas to haul them there and have enough left over for lunch. :-D We will see how many I get this fall. If it is enough, I will cash them in. Waste not, want not. Otherwise, I can still hook the utility trailer to the UTV and haul them to the woods.

The wife hates those trees, and wants them cut down. It aint happening. They are very large and provide a lot of shade.

 

[skeeter]

Farmerdave, I was just adding some experience I have come across over the past couple of years, not to condescend your knowledge of the subject. The reason for fertilizer is that acid rain does damage to soil biology/chemistry. Acid rain typically kills the tree indirectly by starving the tree of its essential minerals/nutrients and killing all the critters, making in unsuitable for them to even live in it.
It you gonna fix that you gotta start with the dirt. Soils that are most impacted by acid rain tend to be in dryer, well drained areas cause the acid leeches deeper, stripping the soil profile completely...root zone. Soils most suitable for Black Walnuts.

Here is a link to a site where i got some of the info in my past post.
http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/forestry/446-602/446-602.html

Another great site If you like to learn more about trees and even ID'ing trees is Dr. Dendro's site at VT, I use this one at work all the time.
http://www.cnr.vt.edu/DENDRO/DENDROLOGY/main.htm

I too have enjoyed this discussion and spent some time yesterday researching to see if anyone has actually experimented with this approach of biological remediation. I am sure there is just havn't found anything yet!

Pat, Chambersburg, PA.

 

[FarmerDave]

skeeter wrote:
Farmerdave, I was just adding some experience I have come across over the past couple of years, not to condescend your knowledge of the subject.

I didn't take it that way. I was just confused by all the "fertilizer" in your message. :lol:

Seriously, the fertilizer makes sense to me now. You seem to know your sh.. err I mean fertilizer. ;-)

I never get upset when some corrects my mistakes on here. there are some very intelegent people on here. I use the name FarmerDave because I own and live on a farm, but i am not a farmer and don't pretend to be. Not a soil expert, either.

I guess I was kinda looking at this bass ackwards. I know in low PH conditions, adding fertilizer to a lawn or garden doesn't help much unless you also add lime. But only adding lime usually isn’t enough either (for reasons you stated). I looked at it as the soil could still be fertile, but with low PH, it wouldn’t be. I figured that with all the leaves and other organic matter, adding lime would be enough. However, you are right. The acidic soils in the typical forests (that we are talking about) is quite sterile. I knew that, I just didn't think about it. I would imagine that the soil would eventually become more fertile from rotting plant matter after adding lime, but it would probably take several years of this because of additional acid with each rain and in the annual rotting leaves. In other words, I agree.

Speaking of acidic wood dirt, and tomatoes (from earlier messages)… My previous house was a new house on a wooded lot, and it was one of the last lots built on in the development. Soil was very infertile, but surprisingly sandy. Because it was one of the last lots to get developed, the neighbors had been piling their leaves on the lot for years. I didn’t buy any top soil when I did the landscaping. I simply scooped up the massive amounts of composted leaves (really rich looking stuff), and spread it around and tilled it in to the sandy “soil.” There really wasn’t any top soil to start with. I added lime and fertilizer, and within two years I had one of the nicest lawns in the neighborhoods. I saved some for a garden and did the same thing. Tomato plants over 6 feet tall, and loaded with tomatoes. It was a tiny garden, but it gave me enough tomatoes that we were able to can over 50 quart of sauce and whole tomatoes one year from just 9 plants. I may not be a soil expert, but I can certainly raise tomatoes.

P.S. Thanks for the links.

 

[skeeter]

HAHA, yeah, I ain't worth a damn when it comes to vegetable gardens. I recently bought a house and this past growing season had my first garden. It was, in retrospect... a disaster. It was a good tomato year but nothing grew right, peppers looked like prunes, and the zucchini tasted like squash. So don't take my word on anything, I just walk the walk and talk the talk...that’s what these boards are for?... fishermen and thier fish stories. LOL

Bent rods, (something new instead of "tight lines"?)
-Pat

 

[skipfavro]

Black walnut trees are toxic to other trees.

Black walnut trees will kill most other trees that grow near them. There are a few exceptions, butternut trees being one of them.

Skip

 

[SpottedCharr]

Learning a lot here...I don't have the book at the moment(babysitting my niece and nephew at my sisters house). But I know it was written by a Bob Chenoweth (sp?) who I think is a Pennsylvania native and references Pa more than any other in the nation.

Good for you FarmerDave in keeping your black walnuts. I think their so valuable just for their beauty. I guess you could say that for about any tree with the exception of the Knowledge of good and evil (oops don't want to start another religious thread 😉

Yeah it seems like a bit of a paradox. The tree grows well in limestone soils and then seems to raise the ph even more. I can't put my finger on it...

jon

 

[FarmerDave]

The problem with the black walnut trees in our yard (besides the obvious nuts dropping in the fall) is that they start dropping leaves in mid summer. Wife sweeps the deck nearly every day from July on until they are all gone, and she lets me know about it, pretty much everytime she does it. Also, one of the trees overhangs the garage. They plug the gutter screen and when one of those hits the roof, it is quite loud. These trees are very tall. I may compromise and take that one out, becuuse it is to the north side and only shades part of the garage and the side yard, but the others are great. The deck is shaded from about 2:00 until nearly sunset. You should see the sunsets from my deck. Wouldn't want those blocked. :-D

I'll tell you how tall these trees are. I had my camper parked under one of those trees for a short while. One of those nuts hit with such force that it smashed right through the plastic roof vent for the frig.

 

[FarmerDave]

Skip, it is true that they are toxic to some trees, but I don't think it is most of them. Besides, Butternut shagbark hickory and a few others of that family produce the same toxin, but you don't here people complaining about those. Black Walnut probably produce more, but i don't know. I do know that may desireable trees do well near black walnuts as long as they get enough sunlight.

http://counties.cce.cornell.edu/yates/MG4.25.01.htm

It is quite toxic to white pine and apple, but i don't know why anyone would want a white pine or apple under a walnut tree anyway.

The way i see it (for me), Cherry is the most valuable of my trees, and if the walnut trees keep out less desireable trees, it makes more room for my cherry trees. Which brings up another point I noticed yeaterday from one of skeeter's links.

One of those links (I only looked at the one so far) stated that black walnut is the most valuable followed by white oak (I think it was white oak). That may have been true in 1998 when the article was written, but it isn't true today. The way I understand it is that cherry is tops in both saw logs and veneer, followed by red oak, and then probably other oaks, then hard maple close behind. At least that is the case where I live. Soft maples have their moments but they seem to fluctuate more (in value), probably because they doesn't keep very long once cut. They can't stockpile it. Poplar is not bad. I'm not familiar with the prices of evergreens.

The bottom dropped out of the black walnut market around the time that article was written, but I hear it is makeing a slight comeback (last year). Part of the problem was the high price. Black walnut wood products got to be outragious. as demand dropped, the prices had to. However, people still demanded the big bucks for their trees, so furnature makers stopped using it. Go to a furnature store and look for furnature made from black walnut. Beautiful stuff, but hard to find. In addition to furniture, it is used for gun stocks. However, many gun manufacturers are going more and more to synthetic. Functionally it is better, but I personally think it looks like chit. Heck, I don't even like plastic fly rods, why would i want plastic gun stocks. :-D And when it comes to saw logs, many mills are reluctant to take it because they have to separate the sawdust and mulch from ther wood. Sawdust is used for animal bedding and the juglone in the sawdust causes problems with horses. The mulch is toxic to lots of bedding plants unless it is composted for at least 6 months.

Disclaimer: If it is venere grade (which is not common where I live), and you take it to a mill that handles mostly venere grade for export, I would imagine it is still pretty valuable. Just don't expect to get as much for it as you could get 15 to 20 to 30 years ago. And if you are talking about back yard trees, most mills won't touch them. They might take them off your hands, or even charge you to remove them, but they probably won't buy them. Keep in mind this is not something i read for the most part, so it could be inaccurate. But it has been my experience. It could be different in other areas. Quality is a big factor. If I remove any of mine (not likely) or lose any in a wind storm, I will have them sawed into boards and store them in my barn for hobby projects.

 

[HawkPSU]

Does anyone know how far away from the black walnut tree that the toxins leach? I tried planting apple trees within 100 yards of 6 large black walnut trees, and all the trees died despite taking all normal precautions, lime, fert., water, bug spray, etc..

I have tons of these trees, I like them, the squirels like them, the deer even like them. I haven't found anyone close that will take them and hull them like others have found.

My grandmother used to make an awesome black walnut cake, but as is typical with grandmothers there is no recipe.

I had a custom made fly tying desk made out of black walnut specifically because it is so prevelent on my property. I would like to make a bedroom suite out of a tree or two sometime in the future.

 

[troutbert]

I have tons of these trees, I like them, the squirels like them, the deer even like them. I haven't found anyone close that will take them and hull them like others have found.

If there are Amish people near where you live, ask some of them. They will probably know someone who buys walnuts.

I've heard you can hull them just by driving over them. On a very small scale you can hull some just by putting on heavy boots and stepping on them. Once they are hulled you can dry them out. Then the fun begins.

You can buy nut crackers made especially for black walnuts. My uncle has one. It's a real heavy duty steel thing. A typical, regular nutcracker won't do it.

A local guy who sells black walnuts already cleaned and ready to go, showed me how he opens them. He has a big pruning shears mounted on a metal bracket. So he CUTS them open rather than cracking them. The pruning shears is heavy duty and has a long handle, so there is plenty of leverage. So it doesn't require that much exertion. It works very slick. It neatly slices the walnut in half, so he can extract big chunks of the meats inside rather than picking away forever at little bits.

My mom made black walnut cake too. Yum!

Black walnuts are great. Delicious nuts. Beautiful wood.

I doubt that they will have any benefits at all for acid rain impacted streams, though. Which was the gist of the original post. Oh well.... :-D

 

[FarmerDave]

troutbert wrote:

You can buy nut crackers made especially for black walnuts. My uncle has one. It's a real heavy duty steel thing. A typical, regular nutcracker won't do it.

It's called a hammer. :lol:

You can hull them by driving over them, but it stains the garage floor. :-D

My dogs are a little squirrelly. They have been eating the black walnuts. The new pup started it and now both of them are doing it. They are actually able to gring them up with their teeth. Every once in awhile it will make one of them throw up. Did i mention that we installed white carpet in the house about a year and a half ago?

 

[troutbert]

A hammer just smashes everything to bits and the good stuff gets all smooshed together with bits of shell. Then when you are eating your black walnut cake you bite down on one of this shell pieces, which is like biting down on a piece of granite.

There’s got to be a better way. Here’s a link to some black walnut crackers. Cool hardware! Cracking them in a vice seems practical and its something many people already own.

http://www.sankey.ws/nutcracker.html

I asked a local guy selling walnut meats at the farmers market how he got the black walnuts out of their shells, and he was very nice in showing me. He said he usually pressure washes the walnuts, to clean them up.

To open the shell, he has a big pruning shears, with long handles, the kind you use to lop off branches. The one handle is mounted on a plank, and the other handle is free to move. (I should have looked more carefully to see how he mounted the handle firmly on the plank. He puts the walnut between the jaws so that they cut it in half right along the seam. He said you can also just put one handle of the shears in a vice.

Then he uses these little shears that he bought at Sears. I’m not sure if they are made for sheet metal or cutting wire. But he said they cost about $10 and have a life-time guarantee and he’s got them replaced 3 times. Once the walnut is cut in half, he just nibbles away at the edges of the shell until he is able to remove the meat intact. So the walnut meat is not all in little pieces that you pick out with a pick, they are big whole chunks of walnut. Nice!