Big wild Brown/little creek

[Mike]

Caught the tail end of processing wild browns from a 100 m electrofishing run (not PFBC) on a narrow (jump across in spots) central Berks stream today. Fish were YOY, yearlings and a fat 21” beauty. If the habitat is suitable, no matter that it may be unusual for a given stream. such large fish are always a possibility but still unusual.

 

[Mike]

For information purposes, I would add that such large fish in very small streams are memorable, in my case for decades, because they seem very out of place. They are so much larger than the rest of the fish in a stream survey that they are real odd-balls. Across the years I recall similar, single 18-20” BT from the headwaters of Big Fishing Ck, Clinton Co, a tiny trib to Willow Ck, Berks Co, and the headwaters of Conowingo Ck, Lancaster Co.

 

[salmonoid]

At this time of year, how likely is it that the fish is a spawner run up from one or more downstream tribs? Same during the summer, when larger fish may be seeking thermal refuges.... Do you think the large fish are transient fish or actual year-round residents?

 

[sixfootfenwick]

At this time of year, how likely is it that the fish is a spawner run up from one or more downstream tribs? Same during the summer, when larger fish may be seeking thermal refuges.... Do you think the large fish are transient fish or actual year-round residents?

This sounds like a transient to me

 

[sarce]

I always wonder the same about if it's a transient fish or not when I come across those out of place fish. One time, I located a 17" wild brown in a pocket water stream in the lone big tree root pool in the public stretch. This wasn't totally surprising as i've caught fish nearly that large there before. I went back to try and catch it in August and there were 5 browns 18-22" stacked like logs in the bottom of the pool...no doubt they were transient. I've never seen a fish over 17" in the stream since. I never caught any of them.

Another time a friend and I were fishing a freestone run in Central PA and fished a mile or so catching run of the mill brown and brook trout, nothing over 12". We came to a 4' deep tree root pool and found 3 enormous browns cruising around. The largest was over 24" and the smallest looked about 18". Again, we didn't catch them but my friend went back a few weeks later and they were nowhere to be found. Have to believe those were also transient fish.

Is it really possible for there to be such a huge jump from 6-9" fish to 18" without there being in-between sizes present? Without some sort of migration playing a role?

 

[Mike]

I always wonder the same about if it's a transient fish or not when I come across those out of place fish. One time, I located a 17" wild brown in a pocket water stream in the lone big tree root pool in the public stretch. This wasn't totally surprising as i've caught fish nearly that large there before. I went back to try and catch it in August and there were 5 browns 18-22" stacked like logs in the bottom of the pool...no doubt they were transient. I've never seen a fish over 17" in the stream since. I never caught any of them.

Another time a friend and I were fishing a freestone run in Central PA and fished a mile or so catching run of the mill brown and brook trout, nothing over 12". We came to a 4' deep tree root pool and found 3 enormous browns cruising around. The largest was over 24" and the smallest looked about 18". Again, we didn't catch them but my friend went back a few weeks later and they were nowhere to be found. Have to believe those were also transient fish.

Is it really possible for there to be such a huge jump from 6-9" fish to 18" without there being in-between sizes present? Without some sort of migration playing a role?

Yes, it’s possible. Recall that I said that the crew electrofished only 100 m. When we surveyed the stream we electrofished at least 300 m., if not more. With the greater length and larger sample size, we handled some “in between” fish probably up to 10-11 in, maybe even a 12 incher or two. That can vary from yr to yr, however. As for BT greater than 12” in very small to moderate size (1.5-8 m wide) streams in Pa, Brown Trout usually don’t exceed 12-13 “ except for occasional fish, with true limestoners perhaps being an exception. So any trout running 14-20+ inches represents a leap across some to many unrepresented length groups in a 300-400 m typical sampling site. That was even the case in a much wider ST stream that I have mentioned in the past. There were numerous trout up to 12 inches and then a leap to a few 15 inchers with none in between.

 

[Mike]

At this time of year, how likely is it that the fish is a spawner run up from one or more downstream tribs? Same during the summer, when larger fish may be seeking thermal refuges.... Do you think the large fish are transient fish or actual year-round residents?

It’s possible but the habitat at a few places, perhaps three holes in the 300-400 m that I have electrofished in the past and the additional two in the 300-500 m that I have fished could hold one of those fish at any time of the year.

For those who might think that such fish would enter the small streams to seek thermal refuge, that is certainly possible, but I would not expect them to run to the headwaters of those streams, passing other areas of suitable, unoccupied big fish habitat. It becomes a little more suspicious when such fish are close to the mouth, but then again near the mouths of many small streams is where the best and nearly only big fish habitat exists, so fish do not have to be transient or seeking thermal refuge to occupy those areas, although they may be and sometimes do so in some streams, especially tribs to rivers. Recall that numerous ( dozens) large trout used to run out of the Schuylkill into Valley Ck as far upstream as the dam in late May or June back in the 1980’s. Some were in poor condition from the river’s thermal stress.

In yesterday’s specific case, I did think it was possible that the fish came upstream a few hundred meters from the moderate size receiving stream and moved over a small waterfall during a recent higher water event. It was also possible that the fish was a resident. We’ll never know for certain. They can be transients or residents, but certainly when I have found them way upstream my mind has gone much more strongly in the resident direction.

Finally, as a general FYI, even when I had surveyed streams during Brown Trout spawning season large fish had not been any more prevalent than they would have been at another time of the year. They had been sparse. The idea that a good number of large fish suddenly appear from nowhere exists more in anglers’ minds, unfortunately, than in reality, likely with some exceptions somewhere in Pa. It wasn’t even the case in a major spawning trib to Penns that was attracting very good numbers of Penns fish during the fall (knew they were Penns fish because of a tagging operation).

 

[Schaefer406]

For information purposes, I would add that such large fish in very small streams are memorable, in my case for decades, because they seem very out of place. They are so much larger than the rest of the fish in a stream survey that they are real odd-balls. Across the years I recall similar, single 18-20” BT from the headwaters of Big Fishing Ck, Clinton Co, a tiny trib to Willow Ck, Berks Co, and the headwaters of Conowingo Ck, Lancaster Co.

In the Conowingo??? I know it is a class A in one section close to Tanglewood GC; however, the water is extremely skinny and I don't remember there being good habitat. Also, is there even public access to the stream? If there isn't public access in the class A section, then a large brown is definitely possible. I know of a few others in the area with some insane potential, but obviously will not discuss on here.

 

[Clams]

One thing I've learned is that the size of a class A creek doesn't really matter. If there are little browns present, then chances are there are a couple big ones there too. They may be harder to locate and catch but most likely they are there.

 

[Schaefer406]

I've only been ff for a few years and I'm not nearly as experienced as some of yall, but one thing I've learned is that the size of a class A creek doesn't really matter. If there are little browns present, then chances are there are a couple big ones there too. They may be harder to locate and catch but most likely they are there.

Not completely true. Size definitely matters for bigger fish. Larger streams = more forage = more habitat. But, smaller streams have big fish opportunity due to lower fish density, larger fish take over prime feeding lanes, and less angling pressure.

 

[Bamboozle]

I once caught a beast of a brown in a very small part of a well known Monroe County Class A in a hole only a foot or so deep.

I was told by more than few folks it probably was a spawner and most likely came from an impoundment downstream. However that is more than 10 miles away as the creek flows which seems like a awful long way to swim for sex...

...although I have been known to travel two hours or more... 😉

 

[sixfootfenwick]

I don't fully agree.
Your assessment is a general truth but I watched a guy pull a 12" wild brook trout out of a unstocked stream half or less the size of Conowingo in a public park. You could tell it was wild. The size of the fish is a huge brook trout in PA, the size of the fish for a stream that size is a monster.

Moreover size of water, while it can mean more forage , has little to do with it.
Fertility or pH has much more to do with forage base. Warm water streams tend to be more diverse in biodiversity and have a high pH than cold water mountain streams.

Letort is a pretty small stream by all accounts but has large trout and lots of food due to its pH

 

[sarce]

Yes, it’s possible. Recall that I said that the crew electrofished only 100 m. When we surveyed the stream we electrofished at least 300 m., if not more. With the greater length and larger sample size, we handled some “in between” fish probably up to 10-11 in, maybe even a 12 incher or two. That can vary from yr to yr, however. As for BT greater than 12” in very small to moderate size (1.5-8 m wide) streams in Pa, Brown Trout usually don’t exceed 12-13 “ except for occasional fish, with true limestoners perhaps being an exception. So any trout running 14-20+ inches represents a leap across some to many unrepresented length groups in a 300-400 m typical sampling site. That was even the case in a much wider ST stream that I have mentioned in the past. There were numerous trout up to 12 inches and then a leap to a few 15 inchers with none in between.

Thanks Mike, I hadn't considered the survey length in that way. Always appreciate your insights from your first hand sampling experiences!

 

[Silent Ocelot]

I'll never forget this one time me and my friend were fishing a tiny stream. As my friend was casting his dry/dropper rig upstream an 18 inch brown emerged from the bottom of the hole and shot up upstream. We had no idea where it went. The hole was fairly shallow, maybe two foot at its deepest. Above the hole was a very shallow run that we both had doubts a trout of that size could run up.

 

[caddisflyer]

Was observing electro fishing in a stream somewhere in Central PA in early June some yrs back. Creek was easily jumped across. There were a few small wild fish in the usual spots but mostly creek chubs and suckers. The guy stuck his probes down in a hole under tree roots and a beautiful yellow colored fish over 20" rolled out of there. This was a long ways upstream from any big water and was in a muddy banked farm creek.
Where I live we have a lot of small unstocked creeks that have some wild fish but not a lot. These are all farm creeks, some wooded but mostly in meadows. Lot's of undercut banks. I know there are 18" fish that are there year round. I also know of some fairly small creek that goes into a large river that has an influx of big migrating fish every fall. They seem to hang around all winter but leave in spring from what I have seen.

 

[Mike]

In the Conowingo??? I know it is a class A in one section close to Tanglewood GC; however, the water is extremely skinny and I don't remember there being good habitat. Also, is there even public access to the stream? If there isn't public access in the class A section, then a large brown is definitely possible. I know of a few others in the area with some insane potential, but obviously will not discuss on here.

It is Class A from the upper stocked section limit to the headwaters. After all of these years and some habitat work, it would not surprise me if a new survey would reveal that the Class A population has expanded for a half mile to a mile farther downstream into the stocked section. Investigating that part of the stocked section (where it’s not posted) yet this fall might be interesting.

Yes, there is a fairly good stream for larger wild BT in Lancaster Co and, separately, there is another potential Class A segment of another creek in the making And portions of the rest of that stream have been developing lower density wild trout populations as well. One could live in worse places for wild trout than Lancaster Co. and some streams are improving.

 

[rustbeltwilds]

you be surprised the amount of 16 to 20 in wild browns that abound in little streams in this great state most arent even well known waters.

 

[Schaefer406]

It is Class A from the upper stocked section limit to the headwaters. After all of these years and some habitat work, it would not surprise me if a new survey would reveal that the Class A population has expanded for a half mile to a mile farther downstream into the stocked section. Investigating that part of the stocked section (where it’s not posted) yet this fall might be interesting.

Yes, there is a fairly good stream for larger wild BT in Lancaster Co and, separately, there is another potential Class A segment of another creek in the making And portions of the rest of that stream have been developing lower density wild trout populations as well. One could live in worse places for wild trout than Lancaster Co. and some streams are improving.

I know it makes me happy to see all of the streams in the county slowly but surely improving. For the conowingo, it gets such a heavy nutrient runoff from the golf course and farmland, and without a steady riparian buffer, it wouldn’t strike me as a fertile stream. Going to do some local exploring today!

 

[wcosner2]

Was observing electro fishing in a stream somewhere in Central PA in early June some yrs back. Creek was easily jumped across. There were a few small wild fish in the usual spots but mostly creek chubs and suckers. The guy stuck his probes down in a hole under tree roots and a beautiful yellow colored fish over 20" rolled out of there. This was a long ways upstream from any big water and was in a muddy banked farm creek.
Where I live we have a lot of small unstocked creeks that have some wild fish but not a lot. These are all farm creeks, some wooded but mostly in meadows. Lot's of undercut banks. I know there are 18" fish that are there year round. I also know of some fairly small creek that goes into a large river that has an influx of big migrating fish every fall. They seem to hang around all winter but leave in spring from what I have seen.

I have had a similar experience of browns coming out of a large river to spawn and then hanging out in the winter. At least I believe they aren't residents and I am planning on doing some more exploring this winter to see if that is the case.

 

[Stenonema]

The idea that a good number of large fish suddenly appear from nowhere exists more in anglers’ minds, unfortunately, than in reality, likely with some exceptions somewhere in Pa.

Appearing from nowhere. Well, that would be magic. From your level of experience, training and education you dismiss the observations of anglers. I am left to assume that you have not experienced these behaviors in your work and studies in Pennsylvania.
If you were to see it, would you see it as special? Special because it isn't common. If everyone knew of it and observed it commonly, it wouldn't be special.
Have you ever hunted? It's archery season. I'm a hunter who hunts for the largest bucks in my area with a bow. It requires a lot of scouting. This type of hunting is the act of patterning movement. In a sense it is the study of movement. Fishing for large wild brown trout is not different.
You dismiss migratory brown trout and the anglers who are observing them as a fiction of the imagination.
From your perspective as a trained person in the field would brown trout that migrate far up into tributaries in mass as a spawning run be special or of intrigue to you. If not... Why dismiss it?