Bait Guys vs Fly Guys Mortality

[JeffS]

The interest in releasing fish is a common theme on this board. Many work fastidiously to release the fish they just caught and they want to see others release the native brookie, wild brown, or a fat rainbow in the same manner.

I am sure someone will call me on it, but studies show that fishing with artificial lures and flies may result in a hooking mortality between 3% and 10%; bait fishing may result in a mortality of up to 25%.

Drastic differences I agree. But what happens when the fly fishermen is fishing a sulphur hatch and hooks 20 fish in a given night, or they hook 10 fish during a trico hatch and need to get the forceps out on 5 of the fish because the fish took the fly deep?

I believe, fish for fish, the bait fishermen may be doing more damage to the fish they are releasing than those fishing with artificial lures or flies, but based upon the numbers of fish some fly guys catch during a given hatch – do the fly guys ultimately hurt/kill as many fish?

 

[Fredrick]

I'm not a statistic guy but I would have to say if the fly is debarbed then no not even close ;-)

 

[JustFish]

JeffS wrote:
The interest in releasing fish is a common theme on this board. Many work fastidiously to release the fish they just caught and they want to see others release the native brookie, wild brown, or a fat rainbow in the same manner.

I am sure someone will call me on it, but studies show that fishing with artificial lures and flies may result in a hooking mortality between 3% and 10%; bait fishing may result in a mortality of up to 25%.

Drastic differences I agree. But what happens when the fly fishermen is fishing a sulphur hatch and hooks 20 fish in a given night, or they hook 10 fish during a trico hatch and need to get the forceps out on 5 of the fish because the fish took the fly deep?

I believe, fish for fish, the bait fishermen may be doing more damage to the fish they are releasing than those fishing with artificial lures or flies, but based upon the numbers of fish some fly guys catch during a given hatch – do the fly guys ultimately hurt/kill as many fish?

That sounds about right except I have read that the mortality rate is 50% for bait fishing.

 

[afishinado]

From Mike’s writings, I believe that he cites some studies that claim bait, fly, and artificial lure mortality rates are similar. This article is from a recent study in Missouri, where they have "trout parks", which are heavily stocked, and have areas segregated for bait, artificial lures, and flies. This is a perfect laboratory for studying mortality rates under realistic conditions. They studied mortality on a long-term basis through all months of every season. Many of the other studies I’ve read, were for a short-term and involved only few hundred anglers and fish. In these SR areas, many thousands of anglers catching many thousands of fish under actual conditions led them to their conclusions. One other note, since it is a pay-to-fish area, and trout are very expensive to raise, the Missouri Dept. of Conservation has a financial interest to protect. Here are their conclusions:

“Studies conducted by fisheries biologist across the country for the past 40 years, and most recently right here in Missouri, have documented that anglers can improve trout fishing just by changing what is on the end of their line. These studies have shown that trout caught and released using bait are five times more likely to die than trout caught and released using artificial lures or flies. In the trout management areas of Missouri, where minimum size limits require anglers to release sublegal size trout, the effects of bait fishing can have a detrimental effect on the fish population. Up to 80% of the sublegal size fish can die before they reach legal size of 15 or 18" in these areas.

Trout, like many other fish, use their sense of smell and taste when selecting food items. When a trout bites a food item, the scents released from the food can trigger the trout to hang onto its prey even more aggressively than if the smell and taste cues were not present. Unfortunately, this can lead to the hook penetrating very sensitive parts of the fish such as gills, esophagus, or even the heart located just under the skin in the lower rear part of the mouth.

Natural, prepared, and scented baits are often fished passively, meaning the bait is left to set on the stream or lake bottom, or suspended below a float, until the fish ingests it and begins to swim off. By this time the hook is usually deep in the fish's mouth. Because artificial lures and flies don't release scents, and because they are fished more actively by pulling them through the water, the time between biting and hooking is reduced, and the hook does not end up as deep in the trout's mouth. Therefore, if trout are to be released, their chances of survival are much greater if anglers use artificial lures or flies.
The use of artificial lures or flies when trout fishing will reduce catch and release mortality, resulting in more and larger fish for all anglers.”


http://mdc.mo.gov/fish/prospects/troutparks.htm

 

[shipnfish2006]

All anglers have a share in killing fish. It's just a matter of who takes the precautions. There are spin guys out there who use single barbless hooks that are very careful and conscious. I think it has more to do with each individual angler than it does the tackle they use. Now I'll agree there are certain baits and tackle that are really bad on fish because the anglers have minimal contact with the bait, but usually people that are using those baits are looking to keep anyway (i.e. powerbait, drifted red worms and waxworms).

 

[MKern]

Jeff you bring up a valid thought/discussion.

But take in consideration your percentages. If a bait fisherman catches 4 fish -- one will die. To get the statistically one fish to perish for a fly angle, he must catch about 30 fish.

In my oppinion, which doesn't really mean much, the amount of time it take to land and release a fish ultimately determines whether it lives of dies, not where it is hooked and if it is bleeding a bit. Fish have immune systems like you and I, and are probably more advanced because they have evolved a lot longer than we have. I've said it before, after you unhook the fish, it should swim/dart away from you as if you spooked it; wild fish that is.

Things happen, and they are unfortunate, but without people fishing and enjoying it, then mortality of fish would be much higher.

 

[JackM]

Never discount the harm to a bleeding fish. While I agree that exhausting a fish is detrimental, I would be reluctant to claim that a bleeding fish played and released quickly, which swims away immediately is in no danger of demise or, for that matter, that a lip-hooked fish which is slow to swim away is more likely to perish. The ability to recover from either type of harm may well depend as much upon conditions in the stream to which it is released. Is the water in the low 70s or mid-50s? Is there adequate cover for the injured fish to seek refuge and recover? Is the food supply abundant, or dissolved oxygen high so that recover conditions are favorable, or is the opposite true? I think you need answers to these questions as well.

But, the point of the initial post is well-taken -- C & R anglers who land hundred or thousands of trout per year may well be killing off an amount equal or greater than the occasional bait angler who harvest all fish and catches a limit or two per year.

 

[pcray1231]

There's so many variables.

For fly fishermen, the biggest variable is water temperature. In colder waters, I would guess the mortality rate is dang near zero. A few guys mishandle fish, and once in a blue moon one takes it deep. But in warm water, mortality shoots up, I'd guess approaching 20-30% just from overplaying fish, perhaps more on some streams where water temperatures are around 70 and 7x and 8x tippets are the norm, though this situation is the exception rather than the rule when you look at the big picture.

For bait fishermen, the biggest variable is the fisherman himself. Someone who fishes a tight line, and sets the hook immediately will have mortality in the 5-10% range, only slightly worse than the average fly fishermen, and probably better in warm water as they typically land fish much more quickly. But their stats are completely offset by those guys who set the rod on a forked stick, fish with bobbers, or guys that simply don't care and let the fish "take it" a while before setting the hook. Their mortality is probably well above 50%, maybe much higher for the worst of the worst.

But, lumping everyone into two broad categories and taking an average, the numbers seem pretty accurate. But I don't find such broad categories as an accurate picture of the way things are. I don't know a better way, though, and we seem to have a need to fit everyone into neatly defined categories.

 

[tabasco_joe]

Odd thing this year I had a stretch were I was gut hooking fish on wollybuggers. Unfortunately these were on C&R waters so I couldn't keep the fish.
One could argue that fish caught on a spinning rod with 6 pound test could be manhandled in quicker and therefore have less chance of dieing from exhaustion. I keep it simple. You can play the statistics game but either way if you release trout that are not obviously mortally injured there will be more to catch next trip than if you keep them.

 

[Mike]

Aflish,
My reference dealt specifically with bait actively fished on a tight line.
Mike

 

[FarmerDave]

I don't really care. Fishing is a blood sport, and as long as you are using hooks, some fish will die. I still occasionally use bait in the early season, but only on stocked trout and only if I intend on keeping a few for dinner. However, i won't dictate to others that they shouldn't use bait if they C&R. We all kill some whether we want to admit it or not. Criticizing someone elses method because it kills more doesn't cut it with me.

 

[Fishinmagician]

Bait will kill more trout it's a fact,the proof is in the pudding.But i'm sure we all have bait fished before.Bait guys generally use bigger hooks and don't always set on the first bump they feel ,like fly guys.I do what i can to ensure survival,that's all we can do.I hardly ever even touch a trout,i use hemo's and grab the fly without touching the fish.Unless it's for a quick photo.This spring I fished alot of delayed harvest areas and know for a fact that i've caught the same trout a week or even a few days later.Because of certain marks on the trout that were very identifiable.I've also seen bait guys on a few of them that were allowed/artificial lures and watched the fish float downstream.And then they have looked at me and said oh well if i keep him i'll get a fine.I was taught if the fish is hooked deep and your not going to keep him, then it's better to cut the line.Rather then digging around in there and causing more harm.Just my two cents for what it's worth.
tight lines

 

[Padraic]

If you hook a fish deep, the line should be cut and the fly left in place. That gives the trout the best chance of survival.

 

[Chaz]

In a study in Md even experienced bait anglers couldn't get the mortality rate below 25%, the rate for brookies on flies was 1% and the rate for browns was less than 1%. that makes the difference quite high. The rate for spinners was from 1% to about 10%.
I only ever bait fished for trout 1 time, I caught enough for 1 meal and took them home for breakfast. The mortality was 100%. Problem is in the real world the major of anglers no matter what type of equipment they use keep some fish. So the mortality rate is much higher than what the studies say it is.

 

[whitefly]

If I am out to put pan fish in the skillet I will use live bait under a bobber. Even then I release the smaller fish. I try my best to set the hook as soon as possible but with some species, like crappies, you almost always have to let the fish take the bobber under to get a hook set. My point here is I think that different species will take the fly/lure/bait in a different way.

Regardless, I now mash down all of my barbs. I would love to tell you that I do that just for the sake of the fish but that wouldn't be true. It's a 50/50 thing for both me and the fish. It's easier and less painful to get the hook out of my anatomy if the barb is gone. I also suggest that anyone that uses live bait switch to circle hooks too. They seem to work for me. Very few gut hook sets with them as compared to lip hook sets.

Thanks for the interesting post.

 

[afishinado]

FYI,

MD study of trout mortality.


Trout Mortality MD

 

[Hook_Jaw]

the biggest trout i hooked during the cicada hatch that took quite a while to get i caught 2 days in a row in the same hole so im not sure about the exhausting the fish theory i bait fish and also fly fish but i fish minnows and have in 15 years maybe killed 3 trout fishing minnows i fish tight line they rarely even get it close to down in far

 

[LehighRegular]

Here is one consideration for regulations re: use of bait.

I agree that actively fished bait does not have the same mortality rates as passively fished bait. But how does one regulate how one fishes the bait? I think it would be virtually impossible.

Therefore, if the goal is to maintain or enhance the resource, increase or maintian fish populations and promote fishing oppurtunities, for "said" stream, then the use of bait fishing should be regulated. Artificial lures only would be the only applicable regulation to achieve said goal, if that is the goal at all. And one could make an argument over the implementation of the C&R All Tackle regulations, esp so on our wild trout streams

 

[JackM]

I can't see how the goal of "promot[ing] fishing oppurtunities" will not be compromised by limiting tackle choices and/or harvest. Some anglers will be discouraged from enjoying the resource if they cannot fish with bait and others will be discouraged if they cannot harvest. These anglers' interests are part of the balance that has to be struck in accomplishing this goal. What this has meant in the past is selecting certain waters or stream segments for greater protection and leaving others for broader enjoyment. I think the Commission has believed that the angler base that prefers bait-fishing and harvesting is a vast majority of anglers, it seems that as this is becoming less true, the Commission needs to react by adjusting the regulations and adding waters to the list with special regulations.

 

[LehighRegular]

I can't see how the goal of "promot[ing] fishing oppurtunities" will not be compromised by limiting tackle choices and/or harvest

I guess its how one interprets "oppurtunities"...but IMO, its simple. The more fish that are in or left in the stream the more oppurtunity to catch them. If one creels the fish or dies due to hook mortality the less oppurtunity to catch a fish.