Acristickid
Well-known member
The madness continues!
Another “newly discovered” Colorado Cutthroat
- Thread starter Acristickid
- Start date
The madness continues!
- Joined
- May 3, 2011
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- 6,855
On a much larger scale, you’re running into the same issue I am with my PA stream quest!
Added 3 more ANF streams to my list based on some additional research and data I got my hands on. Currently sitting at 6. I did manage to chip away at the few stragglers in others areas of the state with the relatively limited fishing time I’ve had this year, so all 6 that are left are ANF. NWPA is really the only part of the state (with wild Trout present) that I can’t get to reasonably in a day trip. And two toddlers now complicates me getting away for an overnighter.
I have a couple ANF visits planned for this Fall. Going to fish a few favorites out that way too, so likely won’t get to all 6 new ones in 2025. Maybe 2026 is the year.
Keep after those native species and keep us in the loop!
Added 3 more ANF streams to my list based on some additional research and data I got my hands on. Currently sitting at 6. I did manage to chip away at the few stragglers in others areas of the state with the relatively limited fishing time I’ve had this year, so all 6 that are left are ANF. NWPA is really the only part of the state (with wild Trout present) that I can’t get to reasonably in a day trip. And two toddlers now complicates me getting away for an overnighter.
I have a couple ANF visits planned for this Fall. Going to fish a few favorites out that way too, so likely won’t get to all 6 new ones in 2025. Maybe 2026 is the year.
Keep after those native species and keep us in the loop!
Acristickid
Well-known member
Will do. I’m waiting some feedback because its possible I’ve already fished there in UT and possibly already caught the newest Colorado. No I don’t know if it is the newest lineage they discovered or it’s the San Juan, Colorado. Perhaps I’ve even already caught it.
Well good luck. And if you believe it, which is at odds with many, a biologists asserts there are 11 different subspecies of Brook trout. I mean, if you keep testing, you’re gonna find differences. You know every biologist would love probably to be credited with finding a new species or sub species.
Well good luck. And if you believe it, which is at odds with many, a biologists asserts there are 11 different subspecies of Brook trout. I mean, if you keep testing, you’re gonna find differences. You know every biologist would love probably to be credited with finding a new species or sub species.
JimKennedy
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- Joined
- Feb 27, 2016
- Messages
- 386
This business of new "species" of trout largely comes down to lumpers and splitters in the biology research world. There are scientists who revel in having their names associated with a "new" species, with Louis Leakey being probably the most famous example. He claimed to have discovered a "missing link" in Olduvai Gorge, and on the weight of his fame and self promotion aided by the National Geographic Society, he is credited with having "discovered" an early human species, homo habilis. (Meanwhile, it was his wife, Mary, who discovered the shattered skull and put it together like a million-year-old jigsaw puzzle, so if anyone deserves credit...) Anyhow, homo habilis is regarded among lumpers as being a fine example of an early human ancestor, Australopithecus africanus.
The whole bit becomes a lot more complex with trout because of their chromosomes. We humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes (64 in 23 pairs); typically chromosomes are in pairs. All y'all who took high school genetics will recall the trusty fruit fly with its three pairs of chromosomes (six total). It makes doing those square calculations to figure out dominant and recessive genes relatively easy.
Well, not so much with trout. A brown trout may have 38 to 42 pairs of chromosomes. One with 38 pair is every bit as much the same species as one with 40 or 41 pair, in the general scheme of things. But it allows for a lot of variation: a few big spots, a lot of little spots, a combination of big and little spots, all black spots, black and red spots, black and red spots with blue halos around the red spots. And then you can get in to things like number of teeth in different rows on the roof of the mouth, and different numbers of rays on the dorsal fin, and all manner of other issues.
As a result, if you read the old time fishing literature from Europe -- or even books today like the excellent Trout of the World by artist and biologist James Prosek -- you'll notice a lot of what are essentially brown trout strains listed as anywhere from different "strains" or "subspecies" to different species: marble trout, soft mouth trout, Oxus trout. (Same is true of charr: arctic charr, brook trout, Dolly Varden, bull, longfin, aurora trout and so on.)
Because the genetic palette has so many options, an isolated population will, in a relatively few generations, adapt to the conditions in the stream or lake or river or river-estuary-ocean system where it finds itself. At this point, the brown trout population that has been resident -- and largely isolated -- in Letort Spring Run since at least the 1930s could probably qualify as a distinct subspecies or even species from the perspective of the splitters. Meanwhile, lumpers like me are inclined to simply refer to them as "brown trout."
The splitter mentality, meanwhile, finds itself creeping into popular angling culture from time to time. When my dad was a kid, Pennsylvania had two different state records for brown trout: one for the Scottish Loch Leven brown trout and one for the German brown trout. Supposedly the Scot strain had no red spots and lots of little black spots, whereas the German strain was big spots, some red but mostly black. While the Loch Leven - German brown trout distinction has faded in Pennsylvania, New York State maintains different records for rainbow trout and steelhead, which are as much the same species as German and Scot brown trout. (And I'll probably get some comments about how they're discernably different, but the bottom line is rainbow vs. steelhead depends solely on whether the individual fish is prompted by outside factors to go through a smoltification process and successfully migrate to the sea. In Maryland, all of the stocked rainbow trout are technically steelhead and when the water temperature is consistently more than 68 degrees, they try to smolt and migrate downstream to the ocean, but just end up finding even warmer water and turning into food for raccoons, turtles and seagulls.)
So I always take it with a grain of salt when someone proclaims a new species of cutthroat trout or brook trout or really any trout. It's not so much about the fish being distinct as it is about the fish expressing certain genetic traits (phenotypes) out of the vast card catalog of possible traits in their variable number of chromosomes (genotypes).
In the long haul, the lumpers end up carrying the day because the evidence offered for species differentiation by the splitters is very hard to quantify at the molecular level, and is very easy to negate with a few generations of selective breeding. In the back of my mind, I always remember that Canis lupus familiaris includes everything from poodles to pit bull terriers, yet it is simply a subspecies of Canis lupus, the mighty gray wolf.
The whole bit becomes a lot more complex with trout because of their chromosomes. We humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes (64 in 23 pairs); typically chromosomes are in pairs. All y'all who took high school genetics will recall the trusty fruit fly with its three pairs of chromosomes (six total). It makes doing those square calculations to figure out dominant and recessive genes relatively easy.
Well, not so much with trout. A brown trout may have 38 to 42 pairs of chromosomes. One with 38 pair is every bit as much the same species as one with 40 or 41 pair, in the general scheme of things. But it allows for a lot of variation: a few big spots, a lot of little spots, a combination of big and little spots, all black spots, black and red spots, black and red spots with blue halos around the red spots. And then you can get in to things like number of teeth in different rows on the roof of the mouth, and different numbers of rays on the dorsal fin, and all manner of other issues.
As a result, if you read the old time fishing literature from Europe -- or even books today like the excellent Trout of the World by artist and biologist James Prosek -- you'll notice a lot of what are essentially brown trout strains listed as anywhere from different "strains" or "subspecies" to different species: marble trout, soft mouth trout, Oxus trout. (Same is true of charr: arctic charr, brook trout, Dolly Varden, bull, longfin, aurora trout and so on.)
Because the genetic palette has so many options, an isolated population will, in a relatively few generations, adapt to the conditions in the stream or lake or river or river-estuary-ocean system where it finds itself. At this point, the brown trout population that has been resident -- and largely isolated -- in Letort Spring Run since at least the 1930s could probably qualify as a distinct subspecies or even species from the perspective of the splitters. Meanwhile, lumpers like me are inclined to simply refer to them as "brown trout."
The splitter mentality, meanwhile, finds itself creeping into popular angling culture from time to time. When my dad was a kid, Pennsylvania had two different state records for brown trout: one for the Scottish Loch Leven brown trout and one for the German brown trout. Supposedly the Scot strain had no red spots and lots of little black spots, whereas the German strain was big spots, some red but mostly black. While the Loch Leven - German brown trout distinction has faded in Pennsylvania, New York State maintains different records for rainbow trout and steelhead, which are as much the same species as German and Scot brown trout. (And I'll probably get some comments about how they're discernably different, but the bottom line is rainbow vs. steelhead depends solely on whether the individual fish is prompted by outside factors to go through a smoltification process and successfully migrate to the sea. In Maryland, all of the stocked rainbow trout are technically steelhead and when the water temperature is consistently more than 68 degrees, they try to smolt and migrate downstream to the ocean, but just end up finding even warmer water and turning into food for raccoons, turtles and seagulls.)
So I always take it with a grain of salt when someone proclaims a new species of cutthroat trout or brook trout or really any trout. It's not so much about the fish being distinct as it is about the fish expressing certain genetic traits (phenotypes) out of the vast card catalog of possible traits in their variable number of chromosomes (genotypes).
In the long haul, the lumpers end up carrying the day because the evidence offered for species differentiation by the splitters is very hard to quantify at the molecular level, and is very easy to negate with a few generations of selective breeding. In the back of my mind, I always remember that Canis lupus familiaris includes everything from poodles to pit bull terriers, yet it is simply a subspecies of Canis lupus, the mighty gray wolf.
Acristickid
Well-known member
I’m pro lumper. 9 Westslopes took 17 days.
The words that I see rare genetic markers is their term.
“Green lineage, or ‘Uncompahgre,’ Colorado River cutthroat trout are recognized as the native cutthroat to the Upper Dolores, Gunnison and Colorado River basins,” said Jackson. “By analyzing fin clips from fish collected in Wildcat Creek, our aquatic research team has identified rare genetic markers that make this population unique to the genetic diversity of cutthroat within the Upper Dolores River basin.”
I got confirmation from my TU scientist friend that confirmed the area that I fished in the Manti Laval NF was indeed the Uncompharge Cutthroat that has been identified with its genetic markers I guess.
I don’t get so concerned about the validity I suppose, but if my group that I’m associated with loosely in regard to native trout hunting, comes down to I’ll be damned if I’m gonna let someone else catch a trout that I have not or more trout than I have. Probably silly.
The words that I see rare genetic markers is their term.
“Green lineage, or ‘Uncompahgre,’ Colorado River cutthroat trout are recognized as the native cutthroat to the Upper Dolores, Gunnison and Colorado River basins,” said Jackson. “By analyzing fin clips from fish collected in Wildcat Creek, our aquatic research team has identified rare genetic markers that make this population unique to the genetic diversity of cutthroat within the Upper Dolores River basin.”
I got confirmation from my TU scientist friend that confirmed the area that I fished in the Manti Laval NF was indeed the Uncompharge Cutthroat that has been identified with its genetic markers I guess.
I don’t get so concerned about the validity I suppose, but if my group that I’m associated with loosely in regard to native trout hunting, comes down to I’ll be damned if I’m gonna let someone else catch a trout that I have not or more trout than I have. Probably silly.
BrookieChaser
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2013
- Messages
- 2,614
Manti Laval National Forest?
Acristickid
Well-known member
Acristickid
Well-known member
My buddy Gary is on the wet fly swing podcast about natives.
Gary’s knowledge, experience is extensive and he has educated and helped me on my own journey. He is an inspiration to me. He is the OG native trout angler. Podcast came out 9-8-25
wetflyswing.com
Gary’s knowledge, experience is extensive and he has educated and helped me on my own journey. He is an inspiration to me. He is the OG native trout angler. Podcast came out 9-8-25
The Wet Fly Swing Fly Fishing Show Podcast - Wet Fly Swing
Click Play Below to Listen to the Most Recent Episode: Find the show: Apple | stitcher | overcast Subscribe on Android Subscribe on Apple Podcasts Subscribe on Spotify Subscribe via RSS
wetflyswing.com
