T
troutbert
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The brook trout looks like a hatchery fish.
The brown trout looks like a wild fish.
The brown trout looks like a wild fish.
You were reading my mind. That's not a native brookie, but the brown does look wild.The brook trout looks like a hatchery fish.
The brown trout looks like a wild fish.
Does the sportsman’s club stock brook trout? I do t think I have ever caught a stocked brook trout but several natives 9-10 inches.You were reading my mind. That's not a native brookie, but the brown does look wild.
I think when many people look at a stream like hammer on google maps all the myths about what can and can’t be a brook teout stream people hear about streams were displacement is often happening from invasive trout species comes crashing down. I’ve walked almost every every foot of the section your looking at and your looking at water flowing over legacy sediment with a stream buried underneath on average probably 5 to 7 feet under it for the most part.Using online maps such as Acmemapper, you can look at aerial imagery of Hammer Creek and tributaries.
The riparian vegetation situation looks very bleak in the upper valley section. If there was a wide buffer of vigorous natural vegetation along the streams and tribs, that would improve the condition of the stream a great deal.
Well you may be take that but our children might not get to because size is as we know not a surrogate for adaptive potential in-terms of dealing with stressors. Thats why managing specifically for larger brook trout above all else is a fishing goal not a conservation one. There are a few free stone tribs but the barrier is still significant from a conservation genetics standpoint given the upper hammer is not a big system. Also if there is hatchery introgression a genetic rescue would have much lower risk of outbreeding depression tou got to keep that in mind. Studies have show introgression was low in some larger systems but it may be more likely in smaller systems. People much smarter than myself have inquired about that barrier and its conservation genetics implications.If inbreeding is going to yield fish like those, I’ll take it. All kidding aside, within a species genetic control of growth rates is usually masked by environmental conditions. Food (quantity and quality) is the most important factor affecting the growth of fish, assuming water temps are suitable. In the case of limestoners groundwater sources at 51-52 deg F extend growing seasons in comparison to freestoners. Additionally, forage biomass is typically greater in limestoners, at least those that have not been substantially degraded by various sources of pollution.
Furthermore, Hammer is a blended system with at least one limestone and multiple freestone ST populations that can freely mix, so it is not as though these populations are genetically isolated.
My post was about the riparian vegetation situation looking very poor along Hammer Creek on aerial imagery. Since you've walked the whole thing, what observations do you have on the riparian vegetation?I think when many people look at a stream like hammer on google maps all the myths about what can and can’t be a brook teout stream people hear about streams were displacement is often happening from invasive trout species comes crashing down. I’ve walked almost every every foot of the section your looking at and your looking at water flowing over legacy sediment with a stream buried underneath on average probably 5 to 7 feet under it for the most part.
No idea what a local sportsman's club could be doing, or not. But, seeing the smaller size head on that fish in relation to the fairly good body size leads me to think it's not a native. Natives usually have a larger head in relation to their body size, with much more vivid coloration as well. jmoDoes the sportsman’s club stock brook trout? I do t think I have ever caught a stocked brook trout but several natives 9-10 inches.
Oh i know I wasnt saying those were your ideas about a brook trout stream. My answer in short is if you walks on mars with all that red dirt but imagine someone tilled it. No trees period for much of the upper watershed. Thats why Greg Wilson from donegal and I decided to startthe watershed effort. Lots of ground water, brook trout and lots of room to go up from here.My post was about the riparian vegetation situation looking very poor along Hammer Creek on aerial imagery. Since you've walked the whole thing, what observations do you have on the riparian vegetation?
I’ve never seen a wild trout population in Pa with all large fish, so managing solely for large trout really isn’t even an option. Producing larger trout by improving habitat, forage, reducing competition, or controlling overharvest (a rarity in purely wild trout fisheries in Pa), in essence “managing for larger trout,” is hardly going to eliminate the smaller trout.Well you may be take that but our children might not get to because size is as we know not a surrogate for adaptive potential in-terms of dealing with stressors. Thats why managing specifically for larger brook trout above all else is a fishing goal not a conservation one. There are a few free stone tribs but the barrier is still significant from a conservation genetics standpoint given the upper hammer is not a big system. Also if there is hatchery introgression a genetic rescue would have much lower risk of outbreeding depression tou got to keep that in mind. Studies have show introgression was low in some larger systems but it may be more likely in smaller systems. People much smarter than myself have inquired about that barrier and its conservation genetics implications.
Hahaha. OK.You were reading my mind. That's not a native brookie, but the brown does look wild.
I get your point about the smaller head being indicative of a hatchery trout but the coloration of Brook trout varies greatly by watershed. Here is a brook trout of similar proportion from a stream that would 110% be a native trout.No idea what a local sportsman's club could be doing, or not. But, seeing the smaller size head on that fish in relation to the fairly good body size leads me to think it's not a native. Natives usually have a larger head in relation to their body size, with much more vivid coloration as well. jmo
Mike, I’m always impressed that you can tell what streams my trout are from but this time it’s way far away from that. I’ll PM you.Hop…and note the color of the anal fin on your fish….that domesticated red raspberry color. I have seen that in one creek only and it’s located in Centre Co….a limestone spring creek that one could take a running jump across.
Agree. Not a chance that's a stocked brookie. Fins are razor clean. Head size is small because it's a spring creek with good growth rates. Not a Poconos freestoner.Hahaha. OK.
Thats exactly my point too, that there is an unrealistic obsession with size. I pointed out that valuing only fish size was the end point of the faulty study that only sampled average length of 300m that you have mentioned when we talk about catch and release. The end point was a brook trout in millimeters. I was pointing out we should be looking at resiliency of the fish and adaptive potential instead of size which is what those studying conservation genetics of brook trout will tell you. Its ablut their ability to deal with stressors not how hard they pull on a rod or what “fishery” they provide if we are talking about conservation.I’ve never seen a wild trout population in Pa with all large fish, so managing solely for large trout really isn’t even an option. Producing larger trout by improving habitat, forage, reducing competition, or controlling overharvest (a rarity in purely wild trout fisheries in Pa), in essence “managing for larger trout,” is hardly going to eliminate the smaller trout.
What genetic data from Hammer suggest that there is a “significant conservation genetics barrier?” Research from W Va showed that ST were genetically different just within short stretches of stream almost as if they were family groups for lack of a better term. This suggests to me that genetic diversity would have a good chance of not being problematic when speaking about a ST stream with interchange among multiple ST tribs and the main stream where freestoners and limestoners are undergoing differing stressors.
Every time one of these floods occurs, I imagine the browns survive it better than the brook trout. Every flood = a tip toward brown trout dominance. The climate is changing and flooding rainfall has become much more frequent in SE PA in the past 10 years. This creates more events that shift the balance in favor of browns.As far as perceived changes in the number of brown and brook trout its hard because the public cannot fish the majority of hammer creek and populations can get fluctuate with large flood events sabotaging a reproducrove class. It doesn’t take a scary amount of rain to blow that stream out.
My in person attention(outside these threads) given to the stream has been due to its conservation potential with the massive springs to sustain a healthy brook trout populations into/ through climate change if certain physical and invasive species impairments can be improved. From a fishing standpoint i agree the attention puzzles me. Its hust local for alot of people i gather, Lancaster is a growing area so is lebanon.I am continually amazed at how much attention hammer creek threads get given the poor trout habitat and even worse fishing experience it yields most of the time.
That doesn’t mean that there is not a significant population of wild trout in the stream and that stream doesn’t need all the help we can give.
I can’t even say I’ve ever seen anyone fishing upper hammer aside from the parking lot area on pumping station rd. ( easy access to the dam pool)