Spring Mill Creek Conshohocken

M

montcotrout

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Joined
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Pennsylvania
Has anyone ever checked out Spring Mill Creek in Conshohocken? I made a quick stop to scout it out from the access point on the SRT and saw a lot a fishy looking water and schools of bait fish. Didn't have any of my gear with me since I was just grabbing a beer with a friend, but was curious if anybody had ever checked it out. It's not very wide, maybe 3-5 feet tops. I know Mill Creek in Lower Merion has a wild brown population and have had some success there as well, but always nice to learn about the rare gems in SEPA.
 
It’s cold, or at least it was, has or had a population of sculpins, is a limestoner, and received a transfer of wild Brook Trout from a Berks Co stream in the very late 1990’s or early 2000’s. Limited successful reproduction occurred, possibly because of the stormwater sedimentation and scour, but then the population fizzled as far as DEP and we could tell.

Attempts have been made in Pa to transfer wild ST by agencies. In some cases reproduction has occurred, but in just a few years the populations have disappeared. I would expect reluctance (reluctance does not mean never) by the agencies to get involved in many more of these due to the low percentage of their success.

So far, Aquetong Ck, Bucks Co is the most successful reintroduction that I am aware of to date.
 
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Mike said:
It’s cold, or at least it was, has or had a population of sculpins, is a limestoner, and received a transfer of wild Brook Trout from a Berks Co stream in the very late 1990’s or early 2000’s. Limited successful reproduction occurred, possibly because of the stormwater sedimentation and scour, but then the population fizzled as far as DEP and we could tell.

Unlike what has been suggested here, attempts have been made in Pa to transfer wild ST by agencies (as well as sportsmen’s groups). So far, not one has worked. In some cases reproduction has occurred, but in just a few years the populations have disappeared. This is what is happening at Aquetong Ck in Bucks Co at the moment. I would expect reluctance by the agencies to get involved in many (or any) more of these due to the low percentage of success despite the hype.
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Mike, do you have an update on Aquetong creek? I grew up in the area and the last I heard, things were looking decent for the brookies but that was back in like 2018. Have there been any electrofishing surveys there recently?
 
Mike said:
It’s cold, or at least it was, has or had a population of sculpins, is a limestoner, and received a transfer of wild Brook Trout from a Berks Co stream in the very late 1990’s or early 2000’s. Limited successful reproduction occurred, possibly because of the stormwater sedimentation and scour, but then the population fizzled as far as DEP and we could tell.

Unlike what has been suggested here, attempts have been made in Pa to transfer wild ST by agencies (as well as sportsmen’s groups). So far, not one has worked. In some cases reproduction has occurred, but in just a few years the populations have disappeared. This is what is happening at Aquetong Ck in Bucks Co at the moment. I would expect reluctance by the agencies to get involved in many (or any) more of these due to the low percentage of success despite the hype.
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Wrong. As per a document I have shared on here there is one that is listed as successful! Big spring, despite protecting invasive rainbow trout and using inbred hatchery fish, was listed as a “successful” reintroduction by PAFBC. Its not a serious one because the. Instead they would have actually selected a source population. However, the valuable lesson is that every single aspect of that except possibly some habitat work was done wrong. Hatchery stock, protecting invasive species and they are still there. So in some cases streams lend them self to it more than others. These reintroductions work very well outside PA problem is we have a policy that we won’t do removal AND reintroduction in PA.

Long story short PAFB is trying reintroduction without removal so brook trout either have to deal with invasive trout or a stream so degraded it doesn’t currently support invasive trout in which case your just picking a poor candidate.

What about these hemlock lined rhodo chocked streams on SGL. If you did what other states do and throw up a conservation barrier, do a removal, and THEN reintroduce sure. PFBC’s two attempts they list either suffer from unwillingness to manage invasive trout or picking streams not even able to support invasive trout to start with(lime stone run was not a huge BT pop as far as I know)
 
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If Big Spring ST were not extirpated, then I wouldn’t call it a reintroduction. I might refer to it as as a suplementation of the existing population to speed up the response to habitat enhancement.
 
wcosner2 said:
Mike, do you have an update on Aquetong creek? I grew up in the area and the last I heard, things were looking decent for the brookies but that was back in like 2018. Have there been any electrofishing surveys there recently?
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I don't know as much as Mike but I did check out the stream in Aquetong Spring Park last September. BCTU had a lot of habitat laid down and Solebury was having discussion of a youth fly fishing area within the park for C&R.
 
Fish Sticks said:
Wrong. As per a document I have shared on here there is one that is listed as successful! Big spring, despite protecting invasive rainbow trout and using inbred hatchery fish, was listed as a “successful” reintroduction by PAFBC. Its not a serious one because the. Instead they would have actually selected a source population.
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Ahh come on man, Mikes not the enemy here. He has a more realistic approach to wild trout management which I know is not your forte but he has had a more than respectable career as a fisheries biologist.

Your opinions may not always align, but I assure you he cares about native ST and restoration of wild trout fisheries in general. He’s worked with many on this site to seek out unidentified wild trout streams and it’s brought protection to those bodies of water where there was now previously.

He’s also been a wealth of knowledge and still has connections with current PAFBC staff.
 
Mike said:
It’s cold, or at least it was, has or had a population of sculpins, is a limestoner, and received a transfer of wild Brook Trout from a Berks Co stream in the very late 1990’s or early 2000’s. Limited successful reproduction occurred, possibly because of the stormwater sedimentation and scour, but then the population fizzled as far as DEP and we could tell.

Attempts have been made in Pa to transfer wild ST by agencies, not just sportsmen’s groups. So far, not one has worked. In some cases reproduction has occurred, but in just a few years the populations have disappeared. This is what appears to be happening to another sportsmen’s group’s effort in at the moment. I would expect reluctance by the agencies to get involved in many (or any) more of these due to the low percentage of success despite the hype.
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That's interesting. I believe you, but I'm curious why PFBC didn't mention that one when they were asked to provide a list of ST reintroductions. They only listed Big Spring and Limestone Run in Milton as the only two reintroduction attempts to date.

I do have to agree with FS that other states have had success (including Ohio), so it is possible. I wonder how much effort is really being put into it. Are we translocating a few dozen fish and calling it a day? Mike, do you recall the extent of the efforts on this stream?
 
montcotrout said:
I don't know as much as Mike but I did check out the stream in Aquetong Spring Park last September. BCTU had a lot of habitat laid down and Solebury was having discussion of a youth fly fishing area within the park for C&R.
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Aquatong brookies were doing pretty good last time I went there but that was 2018.
 
Mike said:
If Big Spring ST were not extirpated, then I wouldn’t call it a reintroduction. I might refer to it as as a suplementation of the existing population to speed up the response to habitat enhancement.
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Looks like someone from PFBC submitted to EBTJV as a reintroduction project so that leaves one of two scenarios.

1. It was a reintroduction meaning there was extirpation

2. It is as you said and PFBC was aware but submitted it falsely as a reintroduction knowing that to pad non existent brook trout conservation stats for their psuedo cooperation in a regional effort to conserve these fish where they are considered a non participating pariah.
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So, montco, I did walk the unposted portions of the crick in question with my son a few years ago. It is very small but has some sexy looking water, a true spring creek vibe in spots, but we saw no fish on a warm May day. That is not to say that there may not be fish further upstream in commercial property and private backyards.

Also, am wondering where are they going to get fish to repopulate Northkill, if that is where they are still taking the SEPA transplants from. More playing god? Does it impact one increasingly marginal creek to serve another? That crick seems to be turning in brown trout water more and more every year :unsure:
 
Spring Mills was done by PaDEP. The stream was right down the street from its office. The PFBC AFM was contacted by them ahead of time just as they (2) were by the Aquetong group regarding the idea, potential source waters, etc. I don’t know the numbers transferred in either case and, as I said, there was reproduction in the beginning in each case. There were no competing Salmonids. I will add that I was informed upon my query that Aquetong had been doing very well initially, but recently reproduction seemed to be potentially problematic. As Fish Sticks said, however, it could be natural year class variation at play.
 
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Nymph-wristed said:
So, montco, I did walk the unposted portions of the crick in question with my son a few years ago. It is very small but has some sexy looking water, a true spring creek vibe in spots, but we saw no fish on a warm May day. That is not to say that there may not be fish further upstream in commercial property and private backyards.

Also, am wondering where are they going to get fish to repopulate Northkill, if that is where they are still taking the SEPA transplants from. More playing god? Does it impact one increasingly marginal creek to serve another? That crick seems to be turning in brown trout water more and more every year :unsure:
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Than Northkill was not one of the sources I was aware of in either case. Crabby and Spring Mills used Sixpenny fish.
 
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Mike said:
Northkill was not one of the sources I was aware of in either case.
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Thanks, Mike. That may have been Crabby, then. I echo HopBack. I appreciate your historical knowledge and just plain knowledge....
 
Fish Sticks said:
Looks like someone from PFBC submitted to EBTJV as a reintroduction project so that leaves one of two scenarios.

1. It was a reintroduction meaning there was extirpation

2. It is as you said and PFBC was aware but submitted it falsely as a reintroduction knowing that to pad non existent brook trout conservation stats for their psuedo cooperation in a regional effort to conserve these fish where they are considered a non participating pariah.View attachment 1641229698
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You realize that I said “if” ST were not extirpated “I” would not have called it a reintroduction, but I was not involved at BS since the late 1970’s or early 1980’s except for one relatively recent post-habitat improvement survey. I have no idea what criteria were listed or had to be met for classifying something as a reintroduction on that list. I provided my criteria for declaring something a reintroduction vs supplementation.
 
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The survey results from Oct 2021, released 2022 show the creek could be at Class A Status in the near future. I look forward to the survey assessment of habitat and restorations and to see what they will bring.

They stocked 50 brook trout in 2017 and captured 49 in Oct 2021. 3 or so are now over 10 inches.

This is a decent start! Really encouraging to see.
 
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sixfootfenwick said:

The survey results from Oct 2021, released 2022 show the creek could be at Class A Status in the near future. I look forward to the survey assessment of habitat and restorations and to see what they will bring.

They stocked 50 brook trout in 2017 and captured 49 in Oct 2021. 3 or so are now over 10 inches.

This is a decent start! Really encouraging to see.
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Mike that 2021 survey does look promising. Was the reproduction problems you mentioned super recent like 2022? Could it be natural swings/variation of pops? Seems odd it would go from stud to dud in one year.
 
There is another related ST effort underway in SE Pa as a result of PFBC survey work by Area 6. That was initiated over a decade ago as a result of a stream survey upstream from all but one acid source. This was followed by a Conservation District water quality monitoring project through discussions with the AFM and another Area 6 PFBC survey years later near the mouth (approx 2017) below mine acid sources to determine ST initial presence via immigration (as a result of Schuylkill R water quality enhancements mine discharge remediations, sewage treatment plant construction). Those enhancements apparently allowed ST to reach the trib mouth to then ascend the trib at least a short distance upstream in very low numbers. Finally, a water quality enhancement project by the Conservation District followed by Delaware Riverkeeper Network actions to investigate feasibility of introductions in the headwaters above a physical barrier occurred. Introductions have begun via local angling and transport. Restoration efforts by the PFBC don’t have to continuous PFBC involvement for the PFBC to deserve some credit. Coordination with other agencies and the private sector toward a common goal is part of a PFBC AFM’s job.
 
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