Money problems

[tomgamber]

TimMurphy wrote:
Dear paw-paw,

What do you mean you don't like paying more and getting less? Are you still buying gas? :-D

The price of fuel has played a much greater role in reducing my fishing than diminished fishing opportunities have.

It was nothing to make a day trip to State College or the Pocono's when it cost $ 10.00 or 12.00 but now that it costs closer to $ 40.00 I find myself saying to heck with it.

Regards,
Tim Murphy

Would still say the heck with it if your destination included many, many miles of large, wild fish...instead of a few small wild fish or a bunch of bluish mash potato stockers?

Its a little more half and half for me...if the fishing were what it was in Idaho, I'd buy the gas. Since its not, I'll just fish what's close.

Too many adults (particularly the editorial page of my local paper) have told the youngins that the environment isn't as important as the economy, as accommodating population growth, as real estate development, as mining and the war in Iraq. With that kind of mentality, where exactly are we to fish and hunt for these fish and game?

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear paw-paw,

I think we are each missing each others point a bit. Pheasants and rabbits don't live in subdivisions or Mega-box stores. You can't realistically bulldoze every corn field or apple orchard in the State to build new houses and strip malls and not expect things to change, can you?

I don't mean you specifically because I'm sure you can rattle off fields that you hunted while you were younger that are now suburban sprawl. The opportunity to fish and hunt in relative solitude keeps moving further and further away with each passing year.

With travel costs to fish and hunt doubling and tripling over the past 5 years with no apparent end in sight I think you are going to find people going outdoors even less, especially people with young kids. It's tough to blow the money on a car ride when many young kids get bored easily, and face it there aren't as many opportuities for most kids within walking or biking distance that you and I had as youngsters.

I grew up outside of Philly in Lower Bucks County and when I was a kid I could hop on my bike with my fishing rod and be gone from dawn to dark and nobody had to worry about me. That isn't the reality where I live right now, and I live well outside of Harrisburg proper.

Regards,
Tim Murphy

 

[mediclimber]

And the whole loss of area thing is another side to what society has done to itself. You are absolutely right,back in the 70's you could jump on a bike and ride ten to fifteen minutes and be in the middle of fields and streams. I actually made a pretty good living trapping fox, raccoon, muskrat and mink in the early eighties. A round trip drive to the Poconos cost about ten dollars, not fifty. A license was a few bucks, not close to thirty or more. And the Game Commission put out hundreds of pheasants and quaikl and tons of fish. Now it's like pay thirty dollars, stand in line and wait for the five fish to swim by. Of course you're elbow to elbow with forty other people. If you want solitude while hunting or fishing you either need to buy hundreds of acres of land or be willing to hike miles into state land. Now you need the high zoot camping gear in order to stay overnight to make the hike worthwile, if it's even legal to camp out in the middle of nowhere. It's just geting crazier and crazier. Prety soon we wil have to be happy to pay a hundred dollars for the chance to stand ankle deep in some stream and catch a fish that's less than six inches long. Better use barbless hooks cause thirty or forty other people want to catch that same fish so be gentle.

 

[FarmerDave]

Great rant Mediclimber. I liked it.

The only part i disagree with is the part where you say the kids are not allowed to be kids. Of course I could have just missed out on that while i was out splitting wood to heat the house, and canning vegitables from my garden, or collecting eggs from the chickens. The other day we were invited to dinner at a friends house, and i took a few pints of canned stuff from the garden. Some chilli sauce, corn (had great corn this year), and some pepper relish as a thank you gift along with a case of Yuengling. They asked what do they do with the corn? Can you believe it? I said put it on the shelf and look at it ... it's corn for pete sake, what do you think you should do with it. City people. :roll: I actually did say that, but we often joke around like that. i didn't say it to his wife though. It's better than the store bought stuff because i know what went in the jar. No pesticides, either. He did know what to do with the Yuengling though. ;-)

OK, I don't disagree with that part either and was just using it as a point to start. IMHO, you may have touched on some things.

When i was a kid, we used to have pickup baseball games or football games darn near every day, with no adults around. The parents knew where we were at, and what we were doing, but they allowed us to just have fun. We played because it was fun, and at the same time we unknowingly were developing our social skills. A local business guy owned the field and allowed us to play their, and we mowed and maintained it ourselves. Then the adults got involved and built a new diamond on more level ground outside of town where we couldn't use it everyday. they organized our baseball "games." Their intentions were good, but they basically didn't allow the kids to do their own thing. Nowadays, how often do a group of kids get together on their own to play baseball? nintendo maybe because they can keep a better eye on them, but not outdoor sports. The ball diamond we played on hasn't been used in years. Now soccer appears to be the big thing, and parents are beating each other up and assulting other kids if it doesn't go right for their own kids. It's rediculous. That chit didn't happen when I was a kid. Oh sure there was the occasional scuffle between kids, but we actually policed ourselves better then the adults police themselves today at their kids "games." Games used to be fun once.

What can i say, I'm very old fashioned, and I think it is a fudged up society we live in today. Now you done it, you got me going and all the younger members are going to hate me even more. I'm glad i didn't drive today, otherwise I might find my tires slashed by some soccer parent when i leave today. Notice the political correctness in that last sentence. :lol:

 

[FarmerDave]

tomgamber wrote:

Too many adults (particularly the editorial page of my local paper) have told the youngins that the environment isn't as important as the economy, as accommodating population growth, as real estate development, as mining and the war in Iraq. With that kind of mentality, where exactly are we to fish and hunt for these fish and game?

Well, thank God the kids don't read the editorial pages.


You absolutely correct when you say that too many adults teaching the wrong message on the environment. they are setting bad examples. Drive down the average suburban street and count the big 4X4 SUVs. I don't mind if they actually need them, but the only reason most of them have them is because they are a status symbol. If the higher gas prices means waking up some of them, then maybe it isn't so bad. I'll live with it. We see more large SUVs in the city than the country, and more often than not, there is only one person in it, and they never even see a bail of straw, let alone toe a load of mulch or dirt. Trust me when i say if I didn't need a tow vehicle, I wouldn't have one. But i don't use it for commuting.

However, I honestly think the younger generation is becoming more environmentally aware through TV, teachers, and the media, despite all that above. On the other hand, I think this same TV is also taching the kids that "Fish are people too", and hunting and fishing is bad.

 

[FarmerDave]

... about getting the same bang for the buck on hunting and fishing. Rates have gone up, but have not gone up faster than the rate of inflation. Therefore, you are actually paying less to hunt and fish now than you did 30 years ago. Can you say that about your health care? Of course we would all want to do it for nothing and get the maximum, but that is actually part of the problem in my opinion.

Sure their are less deer, but the hunting is actually better IMHO. When i was a kid it was nothing to see 50 or 60 deer on opening day, but you were lucky if just one had antlers. And if it did have antlers, they were puny. Not just the antlers, the deer were puny. Now, I may see less than a dozen deer in a day, but the percentage of quality deer is much better IMHO. My first decent deer was at age 18. A nice 7 point. It was the third buck i shot in 5 years, each progressively bigger. Well, at the time i thought it was nice with it's 13 inch spread, and maybe 140 pound body. How does that stack up to the bad boy in the picture that i shot 2 years ago. And he wasn't even the biggest one on the farm that year. OK, it was shot in Ohio, but only 5 miles from PA, and they don't have a fence on the border. My brother's farm deep in PA has deer like this now, too, but they were rare before the herds were reduced. This spring i saw no fewer than 5 different bucks on my farm, and three of them were over 200 pounds. Biggest was a 14 point typical rack.

I also think the trout fishing has gotten better.

The only real decline in each is the opportunities.

Granted, kids have short attention spans, and it is more about numbers. But it has always been that way. that is probably why my father usually took us fishing for panfish, and I never really got into trout fishing until later. That is the way it should be.

Same with hunting. If you want numbers, and something to do to keep them from getting bored, don't take them deer hunting right off the bat. Take them small game hunting to get their feet wet. That is the way they all should start out IMHO.

 

[tomgamber]

FarmerDave wrote:


However, I honestly think the younger generation is becoming more environmentally aware through TV, teachers, and the media, despite all that above. On the other hand, I think this same TV is also teaching the kids that "Fish are people too", and hunting and fishing is bad.

I agree the that effort is there and I encourage it...but not without those same pages and others saying that those "TV, teachers, and the media" are liberal scum who are just out to ruin the country.

 

[FarmerDave]

tomgamber wrote:

FarmerDave wrote:


However, I honestly think the younger generation is becoming more environmentally aware through TV, teachers, and the media, despite all that above. On the other hand, I think this same TV is also teaching the kids that "Fish are people too", and hunting and fishing is bad.

I agree the that effort is there and I encourage it...but not without those same pages and others saying that those "TV, teachers, and the media" are liberal scum who are just out to ruin the country.

Oh come on now. You give guys like Rush Limbaugh way too much credit. Those types are out there, but are a small minority and getting smaller every day. I also doubt that many children watch guys like him. Instead, they are watching Walt Disney teamed up with PETA with shows about vegetarian sharks. "Fish are our friends, not food." Which do you suppose has a bigger impact on the children? Look at the voting statistics on how the younger people vote.

Or are you saying that you feel that the media in general leans to the right?

I honestly think that the general public is becoming more aware of the impact that they have on the environment. I would agree that a lot of them still refuse to change because they are selfish, but it isn't because they don't know better. I do think they are at least more aware of it than the general public was 20 years ago. They just don't care. It is frustrating.

How about recycling. This has become a requirement in more and more communities but some people still fight it. What's the big deal? It saves on energy cost, uses less resources, cleaner for the environment, saves money in the long run, and reduces the volume that goes into land fills. Wins all the way around if you ask me. In neighborhoods where it is required or even voluntary, they even provide the bins. Yet many people still refuse and moan about having to separate the stuff. Here is a clue. You don't have to separate it if you put it in the right bin from the start. :roll:

And another thing. It's hard to go a single day without hearing something about greenhouse gases and cleaner energy. It is pretty clear to me which side of this is actually winning. Heck, even Bush admitted recently that global warming is real because of political pressure to do so. Would that have happened 10 years ago? I don't think so.

 

[mediclimber]

That's the spirit FarmerDave, let's let kids be kids. Let's teach em the old fashoned ways of putting up food and hunting and fishing and respecting the environment and each other. Let's teach em the value of a dollar and how not to **** it away. Old fashioned? Thank God.

 

[MKern]

I agree with farmerdave on this one. I feel things are getting better. Old habits, as well as bad habits die hard, but I sense changing is coming (it has to-- in college in an environmental chemestry class, we estimated that fossil fuels would run out in 2019, not to far away!).
there will always be a minority of "bad" people who place a cloud over those who do the right thing.

 

[tomgamber]

FarmerDave wrote:

Or are you saying that you feel that the media in general leans to the right?

I'm saying there is enough of it out there with either no common sense or has their own interests in mind. My first three examples...the Pittsburgh Tribune Review, Fox News and Rupert Murdoch...think he doesn't have long arms..

Rupert Murdoch's media empire includes local television stations reaching more than 44% of the country, FOX NEWS, Fox Sports, National Geographic TV, newspapers, magazines, a production company, and 20th Century Fox movie studios. He also recently acquired DirectTV's 11 million subscribers.

Or what about Clear Channel Radio? Clear Channel owns over 1200 radio stations, 43% of the radio market. Forced all their stations to stop playing the Dixie Chicks because they dissed on Bush a few years back.

Thats a pretty good influence.

The Trib, does everything they can to defend the oil industry and add the words "liberal" and "wacko" to the word 'environmental" at every chance. Look at their syndicated columnists...Ann Coulter and Pat Buchannon...c'mon...My guess is Mellon-Scaife is heavily invested in oil.

Its about the money and they'd sell your favorite stream or hunting farm if they thought they could make a buck on it.

 

[FarmerDave]

mediclimber wrote:
That's the spirit FarmerDave, let's let kids be kids. Let's teach em the old fashoned ways of putting up food and hunting and fishing and respecting the environment and each other. Let's teach em the value of a dollar and how not to **** it away. Old fashioned? Thank God.

i think I detect just a tad of sarcasm i that. Maybe not. :-D

I realize it is a whole lot easier and probably cheaper ot buy canned food and eggs at the store. I just know this is better. We even canned when we lived in the burbs. When i open a quart of Tomatoes, I know that all that went in that jar was tomatoes, a small amount of salt, and maybe a little lemon juice. But no, i don't grow my own lemons. :-D

None of the ingredients are from China. Not even the jars or lids (I hope).

And the eggs? having chickens is a pain in the arse, but I know what the chickens are eating (for the most part). I buy premium feed with no animal protiens, growth hormones, or antibiotics, and I also let them eat natural stuff like grass and bugs. You can actually see the difference when you crack the eggs. Very obvious.

by the way met, I ran a trap line when i was a kid too, but i never ate any of the catch. :-D

 

[FarmerDave]

Tom, at this point I feel like you are just arguing for the sake of argument (which is fine by me), because you didn't really disagree with what i said about things getting better. I'll play along for one more.

So, you think National Geographic TV is a pro big business, pro big oil, and anti-environment because Murcoch owns it? Get real Tom. i'm glad i wasn't drinking coffee when i read that one.

Seriously, you are absolutely right it is about the money. Rupert owns all that because it makes him a lot of money. But he doesn't do the programming. He just knows how to make money and lots of it. That is why he hires people to do the programming in a way that makes him the most money. They gear it to whatever market they are targeting to make the most money.

About the Chixy Dix, or Piggy Chix or whatever those girs are called. i don't think Murdoch banned them form all his stations. He may have, I don't know. It doesn't matter. And they didn't just attack Bush, but that is another discussion. Think about this. What market is their music played in? Who listens to that kind of music? Of course a lot of stations quit playing their music. The market demanded it, not Murdoch. Let me ask you something. Lets say you own one of those stations, and you owned it to make money, and most of your target market wanted them pulled, and many of your sponsers threatened to walk if you didn't pull their music what would you do? "Common sense?" when imis was pulled, was it some kind of Liberal conspiracy? Heck no. It was the market that demanded it. Was Bruch springstien pulled whan he ranted against Bush, but Murdoch or anyone else? Heck no! Why is that? My guess is because of the different market (and timing). The market didn't demand it, and neither did the sponsors.

And as far as news papers go, I don't determine whether they are liberal or conservative by who owns them. I go by what is in them. Of course the owners are going to be more conservative. Most rich people are. But they are rich because they know how to make money, and you don't make money by selling a conservative leaning paper in a liberal urban environment.

Fox national news is different. There were already several more liberal news companies out there, and he was smart enough to grab a very large niche market. Oh, it's very large. because it is national, but a small niche when compared to all the rest of the national news orgs. The local fox stations are neutral because of their local markets.

i hope I covered enough of them, because I'm done.

If rupert Murdoch felt he could make tons of money with a vegetarian cooking station, he would do it.

Tom, I understand your frustration by the slow pace, but things are getting better.

 

[thedude1534]

In response to mediclimbers first rant,

I think you hit the nail directly on the head there. Thats one reason why I think fly fishing can better a person so much especially in this day an age. To be good requires hard work, dealing with frustration, keen observation, problem solving, and above all patience, which is severly lacking in mainstream america.

I say mainstream because if you go out of the cities I think a greater percentage of the people still retain those virtues.

You also made a good point with the higher education thing. This may sound odd coming from a current graduate student, but I strongly believe that several of the popular majors now-a-days are not higher education whatsoever. They are just learning new things at a high school level, but the students are paying through the nose to get it while when they were 17 they could get it for free. Many jobs, especially in the corporate world require little more than a high school education and some training to do. Everything you need to learn you can learn on the job.

It all boils down to a huge scare tactic so people can get rich off of your hard earned money. "Buy the new car with the built in DVD player or your kids will go ape s$%^ in the back seat", "Go get an MBA after 4 years of college so that you can get that more prestigious cubicle monkey job", "You better dump all of your money into this mutual fund right now, or else you will die poor and lonely", "Buy this! Buy that! Otherwise you will never be happy!!!".

You get my point......

 

[tomgamber]

I DO agree with you except for this sentence..."Those types are out there, but are a small minority and getting smaller every day." I'm saying stay vigilant and don't take them lightly.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go out in the 70 degree weather and mow my lawn in November. But our climate isn't changing...My newspaper told me so...

BTW nice buck.

 

[live2fish]

Farmer Dave,

Liked your canned corn comment. Something samilar happened to my wife and me a few years ago. We gave our Pastor and his wife fresh green beans out of the garden. Pastors wife asked what you do with them, she had no idea of how to cook them. Don't know if they ever got eaten.

 

[mediclimber]

Here's one for you there Farmer Dave. It's a recipe for Firecrackers/ Take baby carots, put them in a sweet pickle brine and add a half a teaspoon of red pepper flakes. Can as normal in a boiloing water bath. Leth them sit a week or two and enjoy. Just the right ammount of crunch, sweetness, and heat. I can't make enough of em. I shoulda sent some of them out to Fly Binder too, but he probably won't be back after the attack he received about "buy American and stay out West".

 

[FarmerDave]

tomgamber wrote:
I DO agree with you except for this sentence..."Those types are out there, but are a small minority and getting smaller every day." I'm saying stay vigilant and don't take them lightly.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go out in the 70 degree weather and mow my lawn in November. But our climate isn't changing...My newspaper told me so...

BTW nice buck.

I thought so. :-D

I'll buy that.

Thanks about the buck. Ironically, I got home right at dusk today just in time to see another one at least as big walking across the wheat field. He might have been even bigger bodied. I'd say he was older at least based on his body shape. Couldn't tell how big the rack was because of the distance, and by the time I got the spotting scope on him, it was too dark to see much detail. But I could definitely see he was a huge pot bellied buck. The one in the picture was actually still pretty young.

Canned venison is pretty good, but I use the freezer. It's empty and ready to go. :-D

 

[FarmerDave]

Med, that does sound good.

 

[Woolybugger]

Wonderful thread! Simply wonderful!

I must say that everything you hear has a "spin" on it. The right like the fat, uneducated, drug addict Rush or the left open boarders guys/gals don't influence me anymore. I can't listen to the news anymore, I get too excited with all the lies that they say.

Everything is spin, so why get so excited? I don't anymore!

facts:
1- overpopulation! the earth is too overcrowded, 6.5 billion and soon to be >9 billion. A perfect world would have 1/2 billion or 500 million people.
2- global warming is here. If you are too stupid to see it, just keep praying and donate 10% to your local church..... maybe God will help the fish!

If Farmer Dave thinks the fishing is getting better, well good for him! I always hope for the best!